Tennis Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25,215 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This started out with me wondering why Serena couldn't beat her sister.
So I looked at Venus's record the past two years vs 'Power Players'. Players that hit with a lot of pace.
Turns out Venus has played pretty much all of them the past two years.

32 matches - Opponents: Dokic, Kournikova, SWilliams, Seles, Shaughnessy, Davenport, Dementieva, Mauresmo, Capriati, Henin, Clijsters. All the high ranked big pace types.

LOSES: Four loses to other power players in two years. Only once on Hard courts.

2000 Clay (O) 16 1-6 2-6 X-X LOSES to Jelena DOKIC Rome
2000 Carp (I) FR 4-6 6-3 2-6 LOSES to Lindsay DAVENPORT Linz
2001 Clay (O) 16 1-6 4-6 X-X LOSES to Justine HENIN - Berlin
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-2 5-7 6-7 LOSES to Meghann SHAUGHNESSY - Stanford

SURFACES: Clay 2-2, GRASS 4-0, CARPET 0-1, HARD 22-1

2000 Clay (O) 16 1-6 2-6 X-X LOSES to Jelena DOKIC Rome
2001 Clay (O) SF 6-3 6-1 X-X def JelenaDOKIC - Hamburg
2001 Clay (O) FR 6-3 6-0 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - Hamburg
2001 Clay (O) 16 1-6 4-6 X-X LOSES to Justine HENIN - Berlin

2000 Gras (O) SF 6-2 7-6 X-X def Se WILLIAMS - Wimbledon
2000 Gras (O) FR 6-3 7-6 X-X def L DAVENPORT - Wimbledon
2001 Gras (O) SF 6-2 6-7 6-1 def L DAVENPORT - Wimbledon
2001 Gras (O) FR 6-1 3-6 6-0 def JustynHENIN - Wimbledon

2000 Carp (I) FR 4-6 6-3 2-6 LOSES to Lindsay DAVENPORT Linz

Yeah Venus is a great player, but usually she gets power players on HER surface. Power players on hard courts seem to have no chance against Venus.

2000 Hard (O) SF 6-4 7-5 X-X def AKOURNIKOVA - Stanford
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-1 6-4 X-X def L DAVENPORT - Stanford
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-0 6-7 6-3 def MonicaSELES - San Diego
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 X-X def MonicaSELES - New Haven
2000 Hard (O) 32 7-6 6-1 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - U.S. Open
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-4 7-5 X-X def L DAVENPORT - U.S. Open
2000 Hard (O) SF 6-1 4-6 6-3 def MonicaSELES - Olympics
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 X-X def EDEMENTIEVA - Olympics
2001 Hard (O) 64 6-3 7-6 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - Australia
2001 Hard (O) 16 6-2 3-6 6-3 def Am MAURESMO - Australia
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-0 6-3 X-X def EDEMENTIEVA - Indian Wells
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-2 6-3 X-X def JelenaDOKIC - Miami
2001 Hard (O) FR 4-6 6-1 7-6 def JenCAPRIATI - Miami
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-2 5-7 6-7 LOSES to Meghann SHAUGHNESSY - Stanford
2001 Hard (O) SF 6-2 7-5 X-X def L DAVENPORT - San Diego
2001 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-3 X-X def MonicaSELES - San Diego
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-3 5-7 6-2 def JustynHENIN - New Haven
2001 Hard (O) SF 6-4 7-6 X-X def JenCAPRIATI - New Haven
2001 Hard (O) FR 7-6 6-4 X-X def L DAVENPORT - New Haven
2001 Hard (O) QF 6-3 6-1 X-X def KmCLIJSTERS - U.S. Open
2001 Hard (O) SF 6-4 6-2 X-X def JenCAPRIATI - U.S. Open
2001 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 X-X def Se WILLIAMS - U.S. Open
2002 Hard (O) FR 7-5 6-2 X-X def JustynHENIN - Gold Coast

22-1 on hard courts. 17 of those wins in straight sets. The whole Big Babe division got 4 wins in two years.
Seems to me the finesse players are having the better of it against Venus.
If Serena wants to beat Venus, clearly she should try during clay court season. Or indoors.
If memory serves, Serena's one on-court victory over Venus 1999 Grand Slam Cup, was played on carpet.
But Venus sees to just not lose to power players on grass or hard courts.

You know how many clay court tournaments Serena Williams played the last two years? Three

Amelia Island 2000, Paris 2000, Roland Garros 2001

You know how many TOURNAMENTS Serena Williams played the last two years? 21. In TWO years.

There's isn't anything wrong with how Serena plays against Venus. Other players look bad playing venus on hard courts too. And Serena always plays Venus on grass or hard courts.
Serena's problem is not having enough chances to beat Venus cause she hasn't played enough. If Serena plays her twice on clay and twice on carpet in 2002, I think she'll get AT LEAST one win.


**COMPLETE LIST in ORDER**

2000 Clay (O) 16 1-6 2-6 X-X LOSES to Jelena DOKIC Rome

2000 Gras (O) SF 6-2 7-6 X-X def Se WILLIAMS - Wimbledon
2000 Gras (O) FR 6-3 7-6 X-X def L DAVENPORT - Wimbledon

2000 Hard (O) SF 6-4 7-5 X-X def AKOURNIKOVA - Stanford
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-1 6-4 X-X def L DAVENPORT - Stanford

2000 Hard (O) FR 6-0 6-7 6-3 def MonicaSELES - San Diego

2000 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 X-X def MonicaSELES - New Haven

2000 Hard (O) 32 7-6 6-1 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - U.S. Open
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-4 7-5 X-X def L DAVENPORT - U.S. Open

2000 Hard (O) SF 6-1 4-6 6-3 def MonicaSELES - Olympics
2000 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 x-x def EDEMENTIEVA - Olympics

2000 Carp (I) FR 4-6 6-3 2-6 LOSES to Lindsay DAVENPORT Linz

2001 Hard (O) 64 6-3 7-6 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - Australia
2001 Hard (O) 16 6-2 3-6 6-3 def Am MAURESMO - Australia

2001 Hard (O) QF 6-0 6-3 X-X def EDEMENTIEVA - Indian Wells

2001 Hard (O) QF 6-2 6-3 X-X def JelenaDOKIC - Miami
2001 Hard (O) FR 4-6 6-1 7-6 def JenCAPRIATI - Miami

2001 Clay (O) SF 6-3 6-1 X-X def JelenaDOKIC - Hamburg
2001 Clay (O) FR 6-3 6-0 X-X def SHAUGHNESSY - Hamburg

2001 Clay (O) 16 1-6 4-6 X-X LOSES to Justine HENIN - Berlin

2001 Gras (O) SF 6-2 6-7 6-1 def L DAVENPORT - Wimbledon
2001 Gras (O) FR 6-1 3-6 6-0 def JustynHENIN - Wimbledon

2001 Hard (O) QF 6-2 5-7 6-7 LOSES to Meghann SHAUGHNESSY - Stanford

2001 Hard (O) SF 6-2 7-5 X-X def L DAVENPORT - San Diego
2001 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-3 X-X def MonicaSELES - San Diego

2001 Hard (O) QF 6-3 5-7 6-2 def JustynHENIN - New Haven
2001 Hard (O) SF 6-4 7-6 X-X def JenCAPRIATI - New Haven
2001 Hard (O) FR 7-6 6-4 X-X def L DAVENPORT - New Haven

2001 Hard (O) QF 6-3 6-1 X-X def KmCLIJSTERS - U.S. Open
2001 Hard (O) SF 6-4 6-2 X-X def JenCAPRIATI - U.S. Open
2001 Hard (O) FR 6-2 6-4 X-X def Se WILLIAMS - U.S. Open

2002 Hard (O) FR 7-5 6-2 X-X def JustynHENIN - Gold Coast
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
27,114 Posts
That Grand slam cup match between Serena and Venus was painful to watch, if I remember correctly, neither of them seemed to want to take control of it.

I agree Volcana that Serena needs to play more to beat Venus - if only to give herself more chances to play Venus rather than get herself into good form.

It will be some time though before Serena can overcome her mental barriers against Venus, that will only come when she gets used to playing her sister on the big stage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I think it is just a case of the mentality - she is the younger sibling and there is a dynamic there that only they understand. But seriously I think that Serena should have beaten Venus more times by now. If she played her game there is no doubt she would win - better serve, better forehand. To Venus' credit she is so mentally strong, and Serena lacks this partly because she hardly ever flippin plays!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,626 Posts
The sisterhood dynamic is very hard to explain. Serena may be a fearless competitior, but she still looks @ Venus as her big sister first and that is something that Serena may never be able to come to terms with on the court. It also doesn't help that the sisters make it a point to avoid playing against each other. I think that Venus will always lead Serena in head to head results because of their relationship.
 

·
Veelieve!!!
Joined
·
32,533 Posts
If she played her game there is no doubt she would win - better serve, better forehand. To Venus' credit she is so mentally strong, and Serena lacks this partly because she hardly ever flippin plays!!

I respectfully disagree... So much is made of Serena's technique on her serve, especially her second serve, and of course it's a great looking motion, but it is not more or as effective as her Big Sis's.
Venus mixes it up quite nicely :) Sometimes she 'll blast it, slice it, or topspin it, so her opponents never know what to expect from her .. Serena's 2nd serve on the otherhand is just very dependable and her opponents know what to expect...

Her technique is better, yet Venus's 1st serve % is higher regardless of her opponents... Why is that???
After watching the Wimby semi final and U.S. Open semi and final so many times, I've come to the conclusion that Serena and Jennifer simply go for too much against Venus... Lindsay is guilty of this as well.. After all , when it comes to court coverage , hitting winners at any moment in a rally and good serving Venus is in a league of her own
:p

P.S. Watch Rena when she plays Vee... She seem to have that I want to kick your *ss so bad look in her eyes, while Venus always looks sorrowful <evil grin>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,270 Posts
I like it that Venus is beating up on Serena. I mean I adore Serena but I REALLY adore Venus and she needs to show them all including lil sis just who is the boss on the court.:)

Sorry Serena but Venus is in an orbit all her own.:)

note: Serena is not the only player with a mental block while playing Venus. Seles is another one. But I know it seems that Serena is so powerful. One can just feel her chances at being dominate and reaching that top #1 spot. Which makes it seem strange sometimes when she can't beat Vee.:) The key is when is Serena gonna reach her potential? It really doesn't take a certain player to beat Venus to win slams or to gain that top spot. go Serena and go Venus!:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,401 Posts
Venus' advantage is her speed against her fellow power hitters. IMO, she loves playing the power hitters because she likes the pace of their shots. Against a power hitter, I'd pick Venus.:kiss:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
I agree with Infiniti2001.

When Serena plays Venus she so wants to Kick her -ss.
But Venus on the other hand feels like its just a match that they have to play.

i feel though that Venus at the moment is way way way ahead of everyone one else if healthy she can win the grand slam every single year for the next 2 years
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,878 Posts
Hopefully Serena will come out on top this year. :)
 

·
Team WTAworld, Senior Member
Joined
·
20,610 Posts
Venus just handles hard balls better than anyone else. I think for Serena to beat Venus, she could try coming to the net more, try more angles and more importantly, be merciless! I think Serena shall do it one day! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Yeah I remember when they played at Wimbledon everyone thought that Serena would win, but I was thinking differently. Venus had the tougher matches and played herself into that killer mentality. While Serena was having easy matches crushing her opponents 6-0, 6-1. When it came time to play Venus she was sliding around and hitting off of her back foot. Some people thought it was a fluke, but I just knew that Serena was having a hard time being shoved all of a sudden into a match against a player that would throw everything she threw back at her. Venus handles pace better than any of the power hitters. Even playing Lindsay you would think that Venus would be the one always off balance because of Lindsay's power, but it's usually Lindsay hitting off her back foot.

I also agree with Infiniti that Venus serve is more effective. It would seem like Serena's is because she has such a beautiful motion, and I think up until 2000 it was. But Venus has added so much to her 1st and 2nd serve that makes it much more dangerous than Serena's. Serena's serve is basically the same, but she just places it in different places. Venus can throw the kick, slice, hardball, or topspin at you all in different places. That is a much more potent weapon than Serena's, and constantly keeps an opponent guessing. Plus I think Venus handles Serena's serve better than anyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,289 Posts
I believe that the Reason why Serena doesn't beat Venus is simply because she gets nervous when they play, but she defenetley has the game to beat her.

I think she has a better serve and pretty much all the weapons Venus has, im hoping to see a good match between the two in 2002.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,274 Posts
I agree that Venus truly is in an orbit of her own. I think when she does loses it is because of herself not the other player, with notable exceptions of course when she is just outplayed. Everyone can't win all the time. With serena I think the main problem is just the sister/sibling dynamic. There's nothing unusally about that. The Maleeva sisters, the Everett sisters, even those black brothers and the new american twin brothers(whats their name?) all share the same history of the younger sibling losing to the older one. Serena will just have to keep playing and playing venus to get over the hump. I think if they started playing all their tournaments or more tournaments together that evenually she would gain the confidence and pull through.

When the sisters say they don't have a problem playing each other I believe them but don't think its the whole story. Just like when V said during the us open that she was fine but showed clear signs of having a cold virus; it was the truth but not the whole story. She was fine to play but she still had some kind of cold or something that she refused to acknowledge maybe to keep her confidence up and competition on their toes.

cyb
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
:)
 

·
Veelieve!!!
Joined
·
32,533 Posts
Venus just handles hard balls better than anyone else.
You got that right!!! Capriati and Serena were blasting away at everything while Venus kept peeling the ball during their respective matches against her at the U.S . open. :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Venus+Serena#1fan said:
I believe that the Reason why Serena doesn't beat Venus is simply because she gets nervous when they play, but she defenetley has the game to beat her.

I think she has a better serve and pretty much all the weapons Venus has, im hoping to see a good match between the two in 2002.

Yeah I do think Serena get's nervous, but I also know that she really wants to win against Venus. She fought through her nerves all through the summer and the US Open and had overcome it. But when she faced Venus she had a hard time.

She does have all the weapons Venus has, and the serve is debatable. I can certainly see why some people think her serve is better, but to me Venus' is more effective and Venus handles Serena's serve better than Serena handles Venus'. However there are some things that Venus has that is the deciding factor between them. Venus volleys better, dropshots better, returns better, and covers more court than Serena. She has the height and reach advantage which helps her game more. The same way Venus frustrates other opponents is the way Serena gets frustrated when she plays Venus. Basically they started out with the same weapons, but Venus added so much to her arsenal that separates their games from being identical.

When opponents talk about Venus they usually say things like playing her is mentally draining or she makes you work very hard just to hold serve. When opponents talk about Serena they usually say that she hits the ball very hard, has a great serve, and either it's a winner or a ue. That tells me that if Serena's game is off she struggles, where as if Venus' game is off she could still beat you in two sets just from making her opponent tired physically or mentally. But that was the Serena of past. I have a feeling we're going to see a much more determined and focused Serena in 2002. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
491 Posts
VENUS can control herself.Serena sometimes let her grunting get in the way,and forget to get back on the right track.When my girl on she on.With VENUS you can see MS .QUEEN V ,is always thinking.:cool: :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,564 Posts
A lot of good posts and analysis regarding this matter. Serena is basically inexperienced in big matches. She has just begun to pay her dues. Venus payed her dues, losing to both Hingis and Davenport regularly. In 2000, Venus broke through mentally. Serena, I believe broke through in 2001. Their serves are pretty equal but they are light years apart on return of service. Venus has the best return of serve in the ladies' game period. Serena has the better forehand, and creation of angles. Their backhands are equal. Venus rallies better (comes from all those great matches with Hingis). To me, there is little difference in their shot making abilities. Actually, physically they are remarkably even. The biggest difference between the two is experience, patience, and confidence. I believe this year the gap will lessen. Will Serena ever defeat Venus again?.....I believe she will. Consistently? No! :cool:
 

·
Adrenaline junkie
Joined
·
23,021 Posts
I don't think it is about tennis. Check head-to-head of other sisters. Maleevas, for instance. The older ones always have a big edge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
Serena lets her grunting get in the way too often. Sometimes I feel like the spends more time clearing her throat for the next grunt over, getting in perfect position for the next shot.

Venus has the better backhand.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top