Tennis Forum banner

101 - 120 of 121 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,640 Posts
I stan Caro's wrist.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
39,226 Posts
It was started by Caroline.
Right. I recall one started by Kerber, probably in the same match. It's great strategy anyway, and not like they did this the whole match. So many idiots over here recall that point as something of a shame when it's actually done by two masters of the game! (y)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ishgever

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,148 Posts
Who would win in a arm wrestle?

Caro or a teenage boy with computer and internet in his room?
My money would be on boy... If it was about Kerber, I wouldn't be so sure, though...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,845 Posts
As for what Monica would've done if not for the horrific 1993 event, I don't think she would've changed her game much at all, she would've made minor adjustments to the grass and her vastly improved serve by the spring of 1993 would've ensured she was a contender at Wimbledon for years to come.

....

You would have to think a then 21, almost 22 year old Seles just getting better and better, could easily have won through that messy draw. Sigh, it's all what ifs. But it is interesting to play it out in your head. 😅 On one last point, I was recently watching Davenport-Seles from the 2000 WB QF, and Seles could've taken that match in 2.
That's a big part of the 'what if' to me: Seles didn't turn 30 until after the 2003 US Open, by which time she was retired. She was never the same fitness-wise as before the stabbing, the PTSD and disordered eating having taken their toll.

There are tons of things that happened in the mid-to-late 90s and early 2000s that a mentally healthy, physically fit Monica Seles would have had a tremendous impact on: Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (a player Seles had a 20-3 record against, even including post-stabbing years) winning three more majors, the 1997 emergence of Hingis (imagine a fully fit 23 year old Seles against Hingis that season), Davenport's rise (Seles had the more dynamic ground game and fitness prior to the stabbing, although a lesser serve even at her best), Capriati's return, and the early Williams Sisters and Henin/Clijsters years are all big question marks in my mind.

I don't think Seles would ever be a dominant grass court player, but 1992/93 level Seles for another decade could certainly have taken a Wimbledon or two, likely 94, or 97, or 98, or 99. And that only takes us through age 25.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,906 Posts
Maybe it is also not very popular for a similar reason as underhand serve? It is seen as something in bad taste and unsportsmanlike? After all tennis has been known as a gentleman's sport ... and some elements of etiquette are treated like sanctities (white outfits at Wimbledon for starters).
 

·
Milk and honey
Joined
·
3,565 Posts
That's a big part of the 'what if' to me: Seles didn't turn 30 until after the 2003 US Open, by which time she was retired. She was never the same fitness-wise as before the stabbing, the PTSD and disordered eating having taken their toll.

There are tons of things that happened in the mid-to-late 90s and early 2000s that a mentally healthy, physically fit Monica Seles would have had a tremendous impact on: Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (a player Seles had a 20-3 record against, even including post-stabbing years) winning three more majors, the 1997 emergence of Hingis (imagine a fully fit 23 year old Seles against Hingis that season), Davenport's rise (Seles had the more dynamic ground game and fitness prior to the stabbing, although a lesser serve even at her best), Capriati's return, and the early Williams Sisters and Henin/Clijsters years are all big question marks in my mind.

I don't think Seles would ever be a dominant grass court player, but 1992/93 level Seles for another decade could certainly have taken a Wimbledon or two, likely 94, or 97, or 98, or 99. And that only takes us through age 25.
I couldn't agree more. I mean I love Martina Hingis but I don't think she would have ever dominated 97 and early 98 if Monica had been both physically and mentally fit. All you have to do is look at the 1998 RG SF match between Hingis and Seles as proof. By that point, Martina had won 4 of the past 5 slams, but the 98 French was one of the few times Seles pieced it all together post stabbing. She was still just 24, had briefly shaved at least a few pounds off and was absolutely redlining. She completely obliterated Hingis in that semifinal, and had no business losing to Aranxta in the final - yet another post stabbing major that went by for Seles in which she should have walked away with the trophy. Even in the 99 SF, she lost a tight one to Graf which could've gone her way.

To me, if not for the horrific stabbing, Seles's true peak would have been 1993-2000. I believe by 2001 she was 27, nearing 28 and you could argue she would've still been in good shape, but as she was a great player so young at 15/16, by then she already would've had a lot of miles in the tank if the stabbing never occurred as without any major injuries you're looking at about 12 years without stop. She was barely starting and scratching the surface of her peak in early 1993, as her serving was at it's best so far in her career and she was hitting the ball so well and so cleanly. Imagine the devastation Seles could've wreaked in the mid 90's in particular, where Graf was the only one running the show with no one close - especially in 95-96. Hell, even in 94, Aranxta took both the French and the US (even getting to world number one in early 95!) and that never would've happened with a healthy Monica on the scene. From 97-99 Graf was mostly past it, and a mid twenties Seles with only Hingis and Davenport as true consistent contenders in majors year in and out would've cleaned up at least a few majors, as both Williams sisters were very much pre peak in 97-99.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PamShriver

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,845 Posts
To me, if not for the horrific stabbing, Seles's true peak would have been 1993-2000. I believe by 2001 she was 27, nearing 28 and you could argue she would've still been in good shape, but as she was a great player so young at 15/16, by then she already would've had a lot of miles in the tank if the stabbing never occurred as without any major injuries you're looking at about 12 years without stop.
True, but in part, while she won a lot of matches she never played very many events. The most she ever played was 16 in a season (same 'peak' number as Serena), which she did a couple times, but only once in the first part of her career. Venus Williams played more tournaments than that in her age 18-19 season, for instance, and she is often held up as an example of judicious scheduling.

As an example, in Seles' age 15 season, she only played 9 events (less than some players under current AER play, for example).
 

·
Milk and honey
Joined
·
3,565 Posts
True, but in part, while she won a lot of matches she never played very many events. The most she ever played was 16 in a season (same 'peak' number as Serena), which she did a couple times, but only once in the first part of her career. Venus Williams played more tournaments than that in her age 18-19 season, for instance, and she is often held up as an example of judicious scheduling.

As an example, in Seles' age 15 season, she only played 9 events (less than some players under current AER play, for example).
So, where do you see her peak ending instead of 00/01? Admittedly, despite being in poor shape, in 2002 she was still a top ten player and made the AO SF, beating Venus in the quarters. You make a great point re scheduling though, she never vultured or overplayed even before the stabbing. It's another reason why what happened is such a tragedy - she could've gone on for so many more years at a high level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,860 Posts
Maybe it is also not very popular for a similar reason as underhand serve? It is seen as something in bad taste and unsportsmanlike? After all tennis has been known as a gentleman's sport ... and some elements of etiquette are treated like sanctities (white outfits at Wimbledon for starters).
Those are things that I will never understand. I don't understand the hate against the underhand serve. I like the way Kyrgios use it because he has a very hard serve, so many players stay quite behind the baseline to return and then get surprised with an underhand serve. A dropshot is supposed to be a masterpiece but an underhand serve is unsportsmanlike. It doesn't make any sense to me...

The same with moonballs. They bring quite variaty to the rally and are very good if you are in a defensive position, but it can also be used in an offensive way, for example high ball to the backhand and then going to the net to volley a short return.

None of those is unsportsmanlike...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,216 Posts
...

As an example, in Seles' age 15 season, she only played 9 events (less than some players under current AER play, for example).
What was her junior schedule like at that age, because her junior record isn't on the ITF website? Just as an example, both the finalists in this year's Australian Open played over 30 junior events last year (more than anyone else). I'm assuming that Seles' schedule wasn't that rigorous.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
What was her junior schedule like at that age, because her junior record isn't on the ITF website? Just as an example, both the finalists in this year's Australian Open played over 30 junior events last year (more than anyone else). I'm assuming that Seles' schedule wasn't that rigorous.
IIRC, Seles stopped playing Juniors after 1986 when she moved to Bolletieri's. She never played a Junior Slam as I think she was still playing 14 and Under in 1986. I know she played the Orange Bowl, the Sport Goofy event, and the European Jrs. I know that Seles' camp wanted to keep her development and training hush-hush and they used to have a tarp hanging around her practice court at Bolletieri's. She played an exhibition event in Oregon for Nike in late 1987 and obliterated Zvereva who at the time was the World Junior number 1 and then made her pro debut in early 1988 at Virginia Slims of Florida, where she won a round and then lost to Sabatini something like 7-6, 6-3. She then played at Miami and won a round again and then was beat pretty handily by Chrissie E. She didn't play again until the Autumn where she made the semis of the event in New Orleans and defaulted. This was all when she was still 14.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,845 Posts
IIRC, Seles stopped playing Juniors after 1986 when she moved to Bolletieri's. She never played a Junior Slam as I think she was still playing 14 and Under in 1986. I know she played the Orange Bowl, the Sport Goofy event, and the European Jrs. I know that Seles' camp wanted to keep her development and training hush-hush and they used to have a tarp hanging around her practice court at Bolletieri's. She played an exhibition event in Oregon for Nike in late 1987 and obliterated Zvereva who at the time was the World Junior number 1 and then made her pro debut in early 1988 at Virginia Slims of Florida, where she won a round and then lost to Sabatini something like 7-6, 6-3. She then played at Miami and won a round again and then was beat pretty handily by Chrissie E. She didn't play again until the Autumn where she made the semis of the event in New Orleans and defaulted. This was all when she was still 14.
Thanks for the recollection, I was pretty sure she never played the junior grand slams but couldn't recall the circumstances.

I didn't know the details about her secretive training and development! That's fascinating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
Thanks for the recollection, I was pretty sure she never played the junior grand slams but couldn't recall the circumstances.

I didn't know the details about her secretive training and development! That's fascinating.
Yeah, I think Nick talked about it in one of his books and then I also think there was another female pro who was there at the time who mentioned how they could never see her training. It's all pretty foggy now, but Monica had quite a bit of hype before she ever turned pro. I remember Jim Loehr the sports psychologist wrote about her and had a picture of her in his book and this was before she turned pro. There was also an article about her in Sports Illustrated and they spelled her name the Monika Szeles (I assume how it would be spelled in Hungarian)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Sanchez Vicario was a master at the moonball. She used it effectively in several cases to disrupt her opponents, cause them to become impatient, or just to hang in a match and hope for some errors.

In this video she used then to overcome Habsudova who had her beaten at RG. At the time, Arantxa had won RG in 94, and been runner up in 95...and was nearing the tail end of a big run in the slams (94 RG W, 94 USO W, 95 AO RUP, 95 RG RUP, 95 WIM RUP...)

Despite the French crowd whistling and heckling her, Arantxa kept hitting the moon ball. Karina couldn't come up with an answer, and ASV immediately went into attack mode anytime Habsudova hit a short return off a moonball.

Arantxa won 10-8 in the third set and would eventually make it to another final (again losing to Graf).

Start at about 9:00
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22,025 Posts
It was, but now Push is retired.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,029 Posts
That's a big part of the 'what if' to me: Seles didn't turn 30 until after the 2003 US Open, by which time she was retired. She was never the same fitness-wise as before the stabbing, the PTSD and disordered eating having taken their toll.

There are tons of things that happened in the mid-to-late 90s and early 2000s that a mentally healthy, physically fit Monica Seles would have had a tremendous impact on: Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (a player Seles had a 20-3 record against, even including post-stabbing years) winning three more majors, the 1997 emergence of Hingis (imagine a fully fit 23 year old Seles against Hingis that season), Davenport's rise (Seles had the more dynamic ground game and fitness prior to the stabbing, although a lesser serve even at her best), Capriati's return, and the early Williams Sisters and Henin/Clijsters years are all big question marks in my mind.

I don't think Seles would ever be a dominant grass court player, but 1992/93 level Seles for another decade could certainly have taken a Wimbledon or two, likely 94, or 97, or 98, or 99. And that only takes us through age 25.

I would have expected Seles to be extremely dominant in the mid-90s, as she had made it obvious in the '93 AO final that she was better than Graf. A calendar GS for Seles in '93 was, in my view, shaping up as more likely than not. That said, i don't feel like Seles was solid enough either personally or in her family & entourage situation, to dominate for a really long time... by most accounts she was truly obsessed with money and wealthy men. Let's say that Seles had won 12 out of 16 Grand Slams played in '93-'96 (i think most would agree, not an unreasonable assumption). That kind of run would have taken a lot out of her, and it's questionable how much she would have had left once Hingis and the Williams sisters came along in the late 90s. In those days, a lot of female players were already well beyond their peak by age 25.
 
101 - 120 of 121 Posts
Top