[Josus57]

I am not asking this to start trouble, or make people argue. :devil: Just am curious if you can be honest about a player that you didn't like for whatever reason Re: style of play, gamesmanship, superior additude, or what have you. You need not list why, if you choose to do so.

As for me, it was a hard choice, but I'd say it was Monica Seles. I was not thrilled, especially the sound she made when her racket conected with the ball. I did want her to lose the Worlds # 1 Ranking, but NOT in the way it happened. And, the time off robbed her of many many titles. And while I did not like her, I respected her imensely, and for returning to the game.

 

[Philbo]

Well Ive always had respect for Steffi Graf's game but I could never warm to her as a person.

Most people assume its because Steffi dethroned my fave Martina from the top of the game, but in all honesty that wasnt the only reason for my Graf-apathy - Ive just always been someone who cheers for the older players who are on their way out when they play the next big up and coming star.

I vividly remember being about 11 years old and on the verge of tears, going up to my dad and saying 'i hate that bitch steffi graf, she just beat Chris evert 6-2 6-1 in her last ever wimbledon' which I think may have been 1989.. My dad put his arm around me and said 'its just the way sport goes mate, one day in 10 years or so you'll be cheering for Steffi against the new up and coming young players' - and he was correct enough.. To this day, the ONLY match I can ever recall where I was really genuinely wanting Steffi to win was the 1999 French final against Hingis... but I digress...

For me, and this is completely unfair to the player, but Im yet to be able to overcome this but most of my graf-apathy comes from being on messageboards for 10 years or so and having to deal with a number of Graf fans who really do elevate Steffi into some superhuman godlike status where she was completely untouchable whenever she played tennis.

I resent the fact also that Monica was stabbed and Steffi benefited from this. Many a graf fan will say, its not steffi's fault this happened, which of course it wasnt, but it does annoy me that Steffi fans like to treat Monicas stabbing as if it was just some shoulder injury from wear and tear of the tour and that Monica should have been back on the tour within 8 weeks of it happening.

So most of me enmity towards Steffi does stem from her fans and some of their callous arguments when it comes to Monica.

As for Steffi herself, well Ive always gravitated towards players who wear their heart on their sleeve and show a bit of emotion on court. For me, i want to SEE the player care as much about winning as what I care about them winning and players (sampras, Graf) etc who dont show this are difficult for me to warm to.

But Ive always respected Steffi. How could you not? She was quite possibly the strongest player mentally besides Monica Seles and Serena Williams that Ive ever seen. The number of slams that Steffi won from a position where she should have lost is testament to her fighting spirit...

I also have a tonne of respect for the charity work that Steffi has done outside of tennis and I believe she is a genuinely good person off the court.

She's just never been one that I could warm to though.

 

[gabybackhand]

Well, I'm CERTAINLY not a fan of any of the last years Nº1 (Sharapova, Mauresmo, Safina!,Jankovic!) who are just regular players who luckied into the weakest field in Open Era women's tennis and who would have been just regular Top Tenners in other times. Not their fault, but really don't regard them as great players, no matter all the apes fuzz in GM who believe tennis was invented by the time the Sisters started to play.
I respect Henin, but she would not have won even nearly so much against a Graf or Seles, and even on clay against Sánchez, Sabatini or Evert.
I respect Serena, the only true great player after Graf and Seles eras, and Hingis to some extent but I believe she had a great year in 1997 but she was lucky not to have to dethrone the former Nº1; I don't think she could have beaten a healthy in form Graf on a consistent basis even in her best year.

 

[iainmac]

This is a very difficult one. I suppose I would have to say Maria Sharapova. I don't particularly like her or that stupid noise she makes on the court. But I have to say I respect her brilliance on a fast court when she is timing the ball well. Also she, the Williams and Justine Henin are the only players one could term great since the end of Hingis first career.
I greatly admired Monica Seles and like Phillbo I feel that it is way too easy for Graf fans to forget the extent of the dominance that Seles had over Graf everywhere except Wimbledon. Seles was potentially the greatest player ever, and I am not talking talent but what she could have achieved with that mental strength.
Steffi Graf is a legend and her ability to conquer on all surfaces and on many occassions is unique. Her record to me is less in number but greater in quality than Margaret Court.
Martina Hingis is a genius and the heir to Goolagong, Bueno and Mandlikova.
Sanchez Vicario a super number one.
Amelie Mauresmo a brave and beautiful athlete to behold.
Tracy Austin was great and another what might have been like Seles.
Lindsay Davenport has to be admired for what she achieved with her limitations. Henin was great.
But for me there are two number ones without compare- Chris Evert and of course Martina Navratilova.

 

[Rollo]

There is no one player I have consistently disliked.

When I first got into tennis (1976-77) Chris Evert sat atop the world rankings. I hated her with a passion and loved Virginia Wade. Up through 1981 I favored Martina and Tracy. By 1984 I was an Evert fan all the way and was thrilled when Martina lost. By 1988 I was rooting for Martina.

I've tended to cheer against the #1 of any era.

 

[iainmac]

There is no one player I have consistenly disliked.

When I first got into tennis (1976-77) Chris Evert sat atop the world rankings. I hated her with a passion and loved Virginia Wade. Up through 1981 I favored Martina and Tracy. By 1984 I was an Evert fan all the way and was thrilled when Martina lost. By 1988 I was rooting for Martina.

I've tended to cheer against the #1 of any era.

That is pretty much my experience. With the exception of some of the recent number ones whom I cant empathise or relate to, I tended to support the ex or future number ones. Evert when she played Martina, Martina v Graf, Graf when Seles came along etc.
These people were so brilliant and dominant at their best it was almost inevitable that one supported the underdog.
Well done for supporting Virginia.

 

[DennisFitz]

I feel that it is way too easy for Graf fans to forget the extent of the dominance that Seles had over Graf everywhere except Wimbledon. Seles was potentially the greatest player ever, and I am not talking talent but what she could have achieved with that mental strength.
Steffi Graf is a legend

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and perception of reality. It doesn't mean that it is reality. After all these years I still wonder how come it gets thrown about that Monica "dominated" Steffi! I mean Monica never, and I mean never, had a winning H2H advantage over Steffi! YEs, no doubt that Monica was #1 in 1991 and 1992. And Steffi was #2 (and not #10). I also don't get that it's Wimbledon where some folks want to dismiss, as though Wimbledon results aren't important but other events are. In their entire career, Monica beat Steffi 5 times. 3 times on red clay, 2 times on rebound Ace at the Australian Open. 5 times in 10 years! We of course can debate this until the end of time about what "woulda, coulda shoulda happened." Unfortunately we'll never know. So we can only deal with actual match results. Monica is a great champion! She is going to be in the Hall of Fame, just like Steffi. And everyone will always say she could have been the greatest ever.

OK, I was not a fan of Martina, but I respected the heck out of her game. I even remember cheering for her in her last year on tour.

 

[iainmac]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and perception of reality. It doesn't mean that it is reality. After all these years I still wonder how come it gets thrown about that Monica "dominated" Steffi! I mean Monica never, and I mean never, had a winning H2H advantage over Steffi! YEs, no doubt that Monica was #1 in 1991 and 1992. And Steffi was #2 (and not #10). I also don't get that it's Wimbledon where some folks want to dismiss, as though Wimbledon results aren't important but other events are. In their entire career, Monica beat Steffi 5 times. 3 times on red clay, 2 times on rebound Ace at the Australian Open. 5 times in 10 years! We of course can debate this until the end of time about what "woulda, coulda shoulda happened." Unfortunately we'll never know. So we can only deal with actual match results. Monica is a great champion! She is going to be in the Hall of Fame, just like Steffi. And everyone will always say she could have been the greatest ever.

OK, I was not a fan of Martina, but I respected the heck out of her game. I even remember cheering for her in her last year on tour.

Interesting perspective Dennis. I understand and tune in to what you are saying. To me Graf was the better player for talent and athleticism. That is unquestionable. And as a Scottish/British patriot I would never downgrade the significance of Wimbledon.I didn't explain myself clearly so here goes

1. I did not mean to dismiss Wimbledon. What I meant was that at the other slams Seles had played and beaten Graf. Seldom easily but the psychological damage had been done. It reminded me very much of the Federer and Nadal rivalry now. Up until the French Open final of last year, Nadal rarely beat Federer easily. He won most of the time but a lot of that was due to psychological issues on Federers part. That was clearly what was happening with Seles and Graf. Steffi had clear chances to win the French in 1992 and the Australian in 1993. But she did not have the confidence. There are other parallels- Austin/Evert,
Henin/Clijsters where one player gets into the head of the other often more talented player and troubles them. My point was that due to the fact she had only played Wimbledon twice before that final against Graf that her chances there(on a surface her game was not ideal for) were not so good.
2. I thought that the majority of the Graf victories came pre Monica reaching her best and after the return to the game post Gunther Parsche.
3. And I so agree with you that they are both great players who deserve their place in the Hall of Fame and to be spoken about for generations to come. Is Monica being inducted this year?
4. I simply meant that their are some fans of players who can get carried away by their favourites achievements and often forget the wider picture which true tennis fans like you and I are able to appreciate.

 

[Philbo]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and perception of reality. It doesn't mean that it is reality. After all these years I still wonder how come it gets thrown about that Monica "dominated" Steffi! I mean Monica never, and I mean never, had a winning H2H advantage over Steffi! YEs, no doubt that Monica was #1 in 1991 and 1992. And Steffi was #2 (and not #10). I also don't get that it's Wimbledon where some folks want to dismiss, as though Wimbledon results aren't important but other events are. In their entire career, Monica beat Steffi 5 times. 3 times on red clay, 2 times on rebound Ace at the Australian Open. 5 times in 10 years! We of course can debate this until the end of time about what "woulda, coulda shoulda happened." Unfortunately we'll never know. So we can only deal with actual match results. Monica is a great champion! She is going to be in the Hall of Fame, just like Steffi. And everyone will always say she could have been the greatest ever.

OK, I was not a fan of Martina, but I respected the heck out of her game. I even remember cheering for her in her last year on tour.

Monica may not have dominated Steffi one on one, but Monica dominated the tour. 7 out of 9 slams previously played is dominant by anyones standards.

Sooner or later LDV will be in here arguing that Monica's dominance just happened to coincide with a remarkably bad timed dip in form for Steffi that only lasted about 2 years or so, which magically went away again right around the time Monica was forced off the tour. Its remarkable that Steffi's dip in form and subsequent recovery all coincided with Monica's ascension/stabbing.

By anyone's standards, Monica Seles was the dominant player in womens tennis in the early 90's.

 

[Philbo]

Interesting perspective Dennis. I understand and tune in to what you are saying. To me Graf was the better player for talent and athleticism. That is unquestionable. And as a Scottish/British patriot I would never downgrade the significance of Wimbledon.I didn't explain myself clearly so here goes

1. I did not mean to dismiss Wimbledon. What I meant was that at the other slams Seles had played and beaten Graf. Seldom easily but the psychological damage had been done. It reminded me very much of the Federer and Nadal rivalry now. Up until the French Open final of last year, Nadal rarely beat Federer easily. He won most of the time but a lot of that was due to psychological issues on Federers part. That was clearly what was happening with Seles and Graf. Steffi had clear chances to win the French in 1992 and the Australian in 1993. But she did not have the confidence. There are other parallels- Austin/Evert,
Henin/Clijsters where one player gets into the head of the other often more talented player and troubles them. My point was that due to the fact she had only played Wimbledon twice before that final against Graf that her chances there(on a surface her game was not ideal for) were not so good.
2. I thought that the majority of the Graf victories came pre Monica reaching her best and after the return to the game post Gunther Parsche.
3. And I so agree with you that they are both great players who deserve their place in the Hall of Fame and to be spoken about for generations to come. Is Monica being inducted this year?
4. I simply meant that their are some fans of players who can get carried away by their favourites achievements and often forget the wider picture which true tennis fans like you and I are able to appreciate.

Great comparison. Id never made the connection before but I think you make a good point there.

 

[iainmac]

Great comparison. Id never made the connection before but I think you make a good point there.

Tbanks Phillbo, appreciate that.

 

[PamShriver]

I started following the sport as a fan of Evert, when she was really getting her butt kicked by Martina. While I've gone through fazes of disliking Martina less, I would never count myself as a fan, though I cannot deny her remarkable achievements; I do tend to think that too much is made of her personal problems, weight problems etc. in the '70's as being a reason to discredit Evert's success at that time.
I feel the same way about BJK as I've just always felt that she's manipulated the media to her benefit and comes out of the situation as being perceived by history as a far greater player than she actually was. That being said, I feel that she's done remarkable things for women's tennis, I really just wish she didn't have to discredit Margaret Court's achievements as really these two player's greatness shouldn't be put into the same categories.

Of players that I do not like but greatly respect, Graf is at the top of the list. I am a Seles fan through and through, but Steffi was just remarkable. The serve, the forehand, the speed were just so amazing.
Contemporary number one's are really just a joke outside of Serena and Henin. I could argue for Venus in '00 or '01, but really outside of that most of the rankings have been so disconnected with the reality. Hingis really had a nice situation in '97 with Graf out and Seles not Seles anymore. Once the William sisters and to a lesser extent Davenport came into their own, the charade was over.

 

[iainmac]

I started following the sport as a fan of Evert, when she was really getting her butt kicked by Martina. While I've gone through fazes of disliking Martina less, I would never count myself as a fan, though I cannot deny her remarkable achievements; I do tend to think that too much is made of her personal problems, weight problems etc. in the '70's as being a reason to discredit Evert's success at that time.
I feel the same way about BJK as I've just always felt that she's manipulated the media to her benefit and comes out of the situation as being perceived by history as a far greater player than she actually was. That being said, I feel that she's done remarkable things for women's tennis, I really just wish she didn't have to discredit Margaret Court's achievements as really these two player's greatness shouldn't be put into the same categories.

Of players that I do not like but greatly respect, Graf is at the top of the list. I am a Seles fan through and through, but Steffi was just remarkable. The serve, the forehand, the speed were just so amazing.
Contemporary number one's are really just a joke outside of Serena and Henin. I could argue for Venus in '00 or '01, but really outside of that most of the rankings have been so disconnected with the reality. Hingis really had a nice situation in '97 with Graf out and Seles not Seles anymore. Once the William sisters and to a lesser extent Davenport came into their own, the charade was over.

I have to argue a few of that Pam.
I dont feel that Evert has ever had her achievements questioned re Martina and her weight. Martina was a serve and volley player, with no family, controversial sexual orientation, and no country by 1975. It was obviously going to take her time to adjsut but she was remarkable and by early 76 was a real threat. She could have beaten Chris at Wimbledon 76 and the only players with a realistic chance of beating her in 76 and 77 were Chris, Goolagong, Wade, King and Barker. Chris pre 1975 when Martina was a rookie one cannot compare the two. I dont doubt some people may have decried Evert for reasons like Martinas weight, but they cant be serious or knowledgeable tennis buffs.
BJK may have at times manipulated the media but she had to and she knew that womens tennis needed the press. I dont agree that BJK convinced them she was the best ever, in fact I feel that at times people remembered her via the media as a great feminist and not a great tennis player. In fact she is one of the greatest. And I dont feel she decried Margaret Court too much considering the rivalry. I think she just felt that a lot of Courts grand slams were in Australia and this may have made her look far better than BJK, which she was not(slightly better yes).
Martina Hingis is a genius and would have been even better if things hadnt differed. Remember how young she was in 1997, surely one would have expected her to improve. But of course things changed. I agree re the Williams to a point but I think that Martina at her best would have been able to work out a strategy.
But your other points I agree with, and even when not it is interesting to hear another perspective.

 

[justineheninfan]

I was never a fan of Serena but I definitely respect her.

I was also never a fan fo Navratilova but definitely respect her.

Both are true #1s when at their best.

Not sure who else I would include. I did not particularly like Sanchez Vicario and while I respected her, I never really respected her as a #1 player. She didnt even reach #1 on the computer in her best year of 1994, and reached it instead in 1995 when she was never the best player. She also was IMO the biggest beneficiary of the Seles stabbing, even more than Graf.

 

[gabybackhand]

Ditto!

 

[Claycourter]

Chris Evert. Amazing consistency, but never a fan of counterpunchers.

 

[Rollo]

Chris Evert. Amazing consistency, but never a fan of counterpunchers.

That's cool Claycourter. Your name makes me curious though. do you play tennis? If so, are you (or do you prefer) an attacking game on clay-like a Seles or Graf?

I love to attack all the way-give me a grass court!

 

[Claycourter]

That's cool Claycourter. Your name makes me curious though. do you play tennis? If so, are you (or do you prefer) an attacking game on clay-like a Seles or Graf?

I love to attack all the way-give me a grass court!

I prefer an all court game like Steffi had with minimal weaknesses and perfect on defense and offense. Classic one handed backhand, lots of slices, dropshots on clay and always attacking the net on faster surfaces. I, myself, cannot play like that, so I am always envious of pros who can make tennis an art instead of mere sport, thus Henin, Graf and Federer are my 3 favorite players.

BTW, my name was really a tribute to Henin for reviving classic clay tennis, which has been lost after Steffi retired, I actually like all surfaces.

 

[hingis-seles]

A #1 player who I respect despite not being a fan of - well, I've got two.

Steffi Graf because she was the epitome of professionalism and well, her record speaks for itself. Anything there is to win and she's won it multiple times.

Serena Williams who has played the highest level of tennis by a woman that I have ever seen. While I don't believe that style proved to be sustainable as it destroyed her body, I still think she should have achieved a lot more than she has, given her natural gifts and ability. I rank her right up there with Chris Evert and Monica Seles (pre-stabbing), as far as mental toughness goes.

 

[justineheninfan]

I dont care about stats, I concur Serena of 2002-2003 played at the highest level of a women ever outside of clay (and even on clay she was great, she went toe to toe with Henin on the surface, the last one ever to do that when Henin was her real life). On hard courts or grass the Serena of those years would have regularly beaten even Navratilova or Graf at their best. And I dont even like Serena.