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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think the word "choke" has been getting used quite loosely on this board lately.

Most of the matches I list are Clijsters matches, since they are the most recent and because she's the person the word "choke" is being associated nowadays. I've also thrown in a handful of older ones (2001 or later) for some perspective.


Which of these matches were lost due to choking?

Roland Garros 2001 - Clijsters def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 6-3
Wimbledon 2001 - Capriati def. S. Williams, 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
Australian Open 2002 - Capriati def. Hingis, 4-6 7-6(7) 6-2
Amelia Island 2002 - V. Williams def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 7-6(5)
Los Angeles 2002 - Rubin def. Davenport, 5-7 7-6(5) 6-3
Australian Open 2003 - S. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 7-5
Scottsdale 2003 - Sugiyama def. Clijsters, 3-6 7-5 6-4
Wimbledon 2003 - V. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 6-1
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati, 4-6 7-5 7-6(4)
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Clijsters, 7-5 6-1
 

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I actually think a lot of those matches were lost due to choking.


The most obvious one IMO is the 02 Aus open final. Venus def. Henin at Amelia was Justine choking so hard she nearly shat out her racket. AO 03 was the only other apparent choking one I noticed, but there's probably others.
 

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Choke jobs:

Roland Garros 2001 - Clijsters def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 6-3
Wimbledon 2001 - Capriati def. S. Williams, 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
Australian Open 2002 - Capriati def. Hingis, 4-6 7-6(7) 6-2
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati, 4-6 7-5 7-6(4)
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Clijsters, 7-5 6-1

Not chokes:

Australian Open 2003 - S. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 7-5 - Kim choked a little bit but that wasnt the main factor
Wimbledon 2003 - V. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 6-1

Unsure (I havent seen these):

Amelia Island 2002 - V. Williams def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 7-6(5)
Los Angeles 2002 - Rubin def. Davenport, 5-7 7-6(5) 6-3
Scottsdale 2003 - Sugiyama def. Clijsters, 3-6 7-5 6-4
 

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I tend to apply the word 'choke' with someone getting into a winning position and then dropping her level of play significantly. I would add though that it also involves the opponent picking up their level of play.

With that in mind, IMHO ...

Roland Garros 2001 - Clijsters def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 6-3 ... choke.

Wimbledon 2001 - Capriati def. S. Williams, 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3 ... not a choke, well I'm in two mids on this one.

Australian Open 2002 - Capriati def. Hingis, 4-6 7-6(7) 6-2 ... not seen it :eek:.

Amelia Island 2002 - V. Williams def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 7-6(5) ... choke of epic proportions.

Los Angeles 2002 - Rubin def. Davenport, 5-7 7-6(5) 6-3 ... barely remember it but I don't think it was a choke.

Australian Open 2003 - S. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 7-5 ... choke.

Scottsdale 2003 - Sugiyama def. Clijsters, 3-6 7-5 6-4 ... not seen it.

Wimbledon 2003 - V. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 6-1 ... not a choke.

U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati, 4-6 7-5 7-6(4) ... not a choke.

U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Clijsters, 7-5 6-1 ... not a choke.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Darnit! I wanted to make a poll but WTAWorld went all buggy on me! :(


Anyways, going through USO withdrawal, I popped in a tape of the 2002 Australian Open final and watched it again. When I watched it live the first time I was sure it was a choke. But, removed from it by over a year, it doesn't look like a choke anymore.

The thing is, with the exception of the last Hingis match point, Capriati really saved them. Hingis really seemed to be suffering from the heat...like her body was melting and eventually her mind. To set up some of those matchpoints she was really going for the lines, on one point she found an unbelievable angle, on another one drop-shotted.

It didn't look like gutless, percentage tennis.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Kart said:
Wimbledon 2001 - Capriati def. S. Williams, 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3 ... not a choke, well I'm in two mids on this one.
I remember a discussion in here after Amelia Island 2002 where a lot of us were discussing Henin's massive choke. Someone (I think it was Rollo), said that there's usually a pattern to choking.

As a Double H fan, I'm very accustomed to what her pattern is. The painful point in her matches was always when she would win the first set and be up to 4 games (with a break) in the 2nd set with a point or two for 5.

Looking back at Serena, she always seemed to develop a "stomach ache." She claimed it was a bad diet but I always thought the aches were caused by extreme nervousness.

And, at least after her knee surgery and before her foot problems, Davenport seemed to have problems while serving for her matches.

I don't really follow Kim at all but, from what I've seen, I can't detect any pattern.
 

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I agree that in order to choke, you have to be in a winning position. Therefore the most recent example was not a choke job. Clijsters may have had a couple of set points but she never looked even remotely close to victory.

Capriati vs Henin, though, was the biggest choke job in the history of asphyxiation.
 

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I think amelia island 2002 and us open 2003 are different from the other ones because justine and cappy despite giving up leads never gave up till the last point.
 

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Wimbledon ´01 Jen vs Serena is a choke job. Still can´t believe Serena lost that match.

Amelia Island´02 Justine vs Venus choke job....but that was the last time that Justine choked too.

The semi of the Oz open this year, hmmm....isn´t even really choking, because it´s only by 5-1 that the real Serena stepped up....in fact the match never was in Kim´s hand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
bandabou said:
The semi of the Oz open this year, hmmm....isn´t even really choking, because it´s only by 5-1 that the real Serena stepped up....in fact the match never was in Kim´s hand.
Kim double-faulted like 2 times in a row while serving for it.

She also had two MP.

I also think it's the only real choke she's had all year.
 

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bandabou said:
Wimbledon ´01 Jen vs Serena is a choke job. Still can´t believe Serena lost that match.

Amelia Island´02 Justine vs Venus choke job....but that was the last time that Justine choked too.

The semi of the Oz open this year, hmmm....isn´t even really choking, because it´s only by 5-1 that the real Serena stepped up....in fact the match never was in Kim´s hand.
yeah that wimbledon 2001 match was painfull, serena got sick from choking that match. that said enough

I think aussie open was choking come on serving and 2 doubles faults in a row?
 

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I think they are mostly all chokes except for the last one (the US 2003 final.)
I think that when you're up a set and a break, and you're a top player who should be able to win from a winning position, it's your failure to close out the match.
Having said that, it happens all the time, even to the best of players. It's hard to close out matches.
So for example at Amelia Island sure Venus started playing better, but Justine let her back into the match. It's not like Justine started playing horribly, spraying balls, but she lowered her intensity a little bit, she got safe, just as Capriati did in the semifinal a few weeks ago. JC should win a match up 5-2 in the third set.
Likewise, Hingis should have closed out the Australian final when she was up 4-0 in the second set.

It's not like Justine started playing badly at Amelia Island. in fact, she kept fighting (I think the final set was 7-6) just like Jen didn't play badly at the USO. But they failed to close out the match -- that's the definition of choking.
Of course every choke is also a great comeback, and you can see it from either angle.
 

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They were all chokes!

When Kim said she didn't choke in the AO this year I couldn't beleive it.

A choke is a choke. Get over it and move on like Serena has. She quit choking in late 2001 and has never looked back. All the other women on tour should take note and follow suit.

I certainly hope jennifer will.
 

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irma said:
yeah that wimbledon 2001 match was painfull, serena got sick from choking that match. that said enough

I think aussie open was choking come on serving and 2 doubles faults in a row?
Yeah, those two df´s were the second time around....I think by then Kim was already broken mentally. I kept thinking:" Girl, you better serve it out the first time...otherwise Serena will come and get you!" Which did happen...

Yeah wimbledon´01 was painful...that´s why Canada was a HUGE win for Serena( the same pattern, up comfortably but let Jen in the match again.) If she had lost that match or the qrtrs against Lindsay at the Open, I don´t think we would have seen the Serena of ´02.

The reaction after Serena won that qrtr against Lindsay was priceless....a HUGE relieve for her to finally win a big match again.
 

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cynicole said:
I remember a discussion in here after Amelia Island 2002 where a lot of us were discussing Henin's massive choke. Someone (I think it was Rollo), said that there's usually a pattern to choking.

As a Double H fan, I'm very accustomed to what her pattern is. The painful point in her matches was always when she would win the first set and be up to 4 games (with a break) in the 2nd set with a point or two for 5.

Looking back at Serena, she always seemed to develop a "stomach ache." She claimed it was a bad diet but I always thought the aches were caused by extreme nervousness.

And, at least after her knee surgery and before her foot problems, Davenport seemed to have problems while serving for her matches.

I don't really follow Kim at all but, from what I've seen, I can't detect any pattern.
Well to Justine's credit I think she has overcome her issues in spectacular style this year.

Re: Serena vs JenCap, my issue with that match is definition. If we say the choking player has to drop their level and the the opponent raise theirs then I think that match qualifies. The thing is though, that anyone watching that match saw the way JenCap played a great game to break back in the second set. Serena then became very emotional and developed her stomach problems and then was a bit up and down for the rest of the match.

I wouldn't have called that a choke as much as I would have called it taking control, in my mind similar to Martina H in Paris 1999 (obviously not quite on the same level) so if we call that match a choke, do we call Paris 1999 a choke as well ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Kart said:
I wouldn't have called that a choke as much as I would have called it taking control, in my mind similar to Martina H in Paris 1999 (obviously not quite on the same level) so if we call that match a choke, do we call Paris 1999 a choke as well ?
That point you made I find very interesting. *Thinking*
 

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Roland Garros 2001 - Clijsters def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 6-3
yes
Wimbledon 2001 - Capriati def. S. Williams, 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
No, Serena was sick, she didn't choke
Australian Open 2002 - Capriati def. Hingis, 4-6 7-6(7) 6-2
yes
Amelia Island 2002 - V. Williams def. Henin, 2-6 7-5 7-6(5)
yes
Los Angeles 2002 - Rubin def. Davenport, 5-7 7-6(5) 6-3
not sure
Australian Open 2003 - S. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 7-5
yes
Scottsdale 2003 - Sugiyama def. Clijsters, 3-6 7-5 6-4
no
Wimbledon 2003 - V. Williams def. Clijsters, 4-6 6-3 6-1
not sure
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Capriati, 4-6 7-5 7-6(4)
no
U.S. Open 2003 - Henin-Hardenne def. Clijsters, 7-5 6-1[/QUOTE]
no, you have to be in the lead to choke don't you?
 

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1. RG 01 Clijsters def. Henin
2. AO 02 Capriati def. Hingis
3. AI 02 Venus def. Henin (the biggest choke I have EVER seen. Absolutely abysmal)
4. AO03 Serena def. Clijsters
5. WIMBY 03 Venus def. Clijsters
 

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Clijsters-Henin '01 was a choke, I felt so sorry for Justine, but on the bright side, I became a fan because of that macth. :)
Capriati-Hingis '02 AO, I think it was, Martina not only lost those match points, but also gave out big leads.
Williams-Henin '02 AI, deffinitely a choke, but as Irma pointed out, Justine fought until the end, also saved 5 match points and almost turned the tables in the tiebreak.
Rubin-Davenpoirt, I would call it a choke, Lindsay served well the whole time, and when she served for the macth, her serve disappeared. :fiery:
 
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