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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Venus Williams, injured or no,has to be considered a prohibitive favorite at the upcoming US Open. First of, the best the tour will have to offer at this year’s US Open tried to beat her at Wimbledon with this injury and failed.

Beyond that, she’s been simply devasting almost her whole career in this environment.

When I say 'American hardcourts' I'm going with the usage I feel is common. However, to insure we aren't bogged down by trivia, here's a list of the tournaments I'm referring to.
Code:
Tier I  - Canadian Open, Key Biscayne, Indian Wells, Miami

Tier II - Manhattan Beach, Los Angeles*, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven, Scottsdale*

GS      - U.S. Open

Here’s a handy color code for significant wins and defeats.

[color=red]RED[/color]   -  is any defeat by a player who [b][I]currently[/I][/b] 
        would be a top sixteen seed in a GS, except Serena.
[color=green]GREEN[/color] -  is any defeat by Serena.
[color=blue]BLUE[/color]  - is any win over a [b][I]current[/I][/b] 
        ‘near-elite’, or elite player.

I’m thinking about all this interms of this year’s US Open.
So otherwise fascinating facts like Martina Hingis’ record vs 
Venus are just not relevant here.

Anyway, to start us off, here’s every American hardcourt Venus evfer played.

07 Aug 1995 Manhattan Beach   64 L Asa SVENSSON             4-6 1-6
14 Aug 1995 Canadian Open     64 L Sabine APPELMANS         4-6 6-7

year  w – L 
1995 00 - 02
Totl 00 - 02

08 Mar 1996 Indian Wells      64 L Julie HALARD-DECUGIS     2-6 4-6
12 Aug 1996 Manhattan Beach   64 W Ludmila RICHTEROVA       7-6 6-3 6-2
12 Aug 1996 Manhattan Beach   32 W Linda WILD               6-1 6-2
12 Aug 1996 Manhattan Beach   16 L Steffi GRAF              4-6 4-6
19 Aug 1996 San Diego         32 L Katarina STUDENIKOVA     4-6 6-3 5-7

year  w – L 
1996 02 - 03
Totl 02 - 05

07 Mar 1997 Indian Wells      64 W Anne MILLER              6-2 6-4
07 Mar 1997 Indian Wells      32 W Ai SUGIYAMA              3-6 6-3 6-2
07 Mar 1997 Indian Wells      16 W Iva MAJOLI               7-5 3-6 7-5
[color=red]07 Mar 1997 Indian Wells      QF L Lindsay DAVENPORT        4-6 7-5 6-7[/color]
20 Mar 1997 Key Biscayne     128 W Ginger HELGESON-NIELSEN  6-1 4-6 6-3
[color=blue]20 Mar 1997 Key Biscayne      64 W Jennifer CAPRIATI        7-6 3-6 6-2[/color]
20 Mar 1997 Key Biscayne      32 L Martina HINGIS           4-6 2-6
28 Jul 1997 San Diego         32 W Florencia LABAT          6-3 6-2
28 Jul 1997 San Diego         16 L Martina HINGIS           2-6 1-6
04 Aug 1997 Manhattan Beach   32 W Ann WUNDERLICH           6-0 6-3
04 Aug 1997 Manhattan Beach   16 L Anke HUBER               6-7 4-6
11 Aug 1997 Canadian Open     64 L Nathalie DECHY           1-6 6-1 1-6
25 Aug 1997 US Open          128 W Larisa NEILAND           5-7 6-0 6-1
25 Aug 1997 US Open           64 W Gala LEON GARCIA         6-0 6-1
25 Aug 1997 US Open           32 W Anke HUBER               6-3 6-4
25 Aug 1997 US Open           16 W Joannette KRUGER         6-2 6-3
25 Aug 1997 US Open           QF W Sandrine TESTUD          7-5 7-5
25 Aug 1997 US Open           SF W Irina SPIRLEA            7-6 4-6 7-6
25 Aug 1997 US Open           FR L Martina HINGIS           0-6 4-6

year  w – L 
1997 13 - 06
Totl 15 - 11

05 Mar 1998 Indian Wells      32 W Silvia FARINA ELIA       6-3 6-1
05 Mar 1998 Indian Wells      16 W Dominique VAN ROOST      6-4 6-1
05 Mar 1998 Indian Wells      QF W Joannette KRUGER         6-1 6-3
05 Mar 1998 Indian Wells      SF L Martina HINGIS           0-6 6-7
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      64 W Tatiana PANOVA           6-3 6-3
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      32 W Olga BARABANSCHIKOVA     6-2 6-1
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      16 W Rita GRANDE              6-1 6-4
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      QF W Silvia FARINA ELIA       6-1 6-2
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      SF W Martina HINGIS           6-2 5-7 6-2
19 Mar 1998 Key Biscayne      FR W Anna KOURNIKOVA          2-6 6-4 6-1
27 Jul 1998 Stanford          16 W Corina MORARIU           4-6 6-1 6-0
27 Jul 1998 Stanford          QF W Elena LIKHOVTSEVA        6-2 6-4
27 Jul 1998 Stanford          SF W Monica SELES             6-3 6-4
[color=red]27 Jul 1998 Stanford          FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT        4-6 7-5 4-6[/color]
[color=blue]03 Aug 1998 San Diego         16 W Chanda RUBIN             6-3 6-2[/color]
03 Aug 1998 San Diego         QF L Mary PIERCE              6-2 6-7 0-4 Ret
31 Aug 1998 US Open          128 W Elena WAGNER             6-1 6-0
31 Aug 1998 US Open           64 W Anne KREMER              6-1 6-3
31 Aug 1998 US Open           32 W Larisa NEILAND           5-0 Ret
31 Aug 1998 US Open           16 W Mary PIERCE              6-1 7-6
31 Aug 1998 US Open           QF W Arantxa SANCHEZ-VICARIO  2-6 6-1 6-1
[color=red]31 Aug 1998 US Open           SF L Lindsay DAVENPORT        4-6 4-6[/color]

year  w – L 
1998 18 – 04
Totl 33 - 15

18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      64 W Tara SNYDER              6-3 6-4
18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      32 W Fabiola ZULUAGA          6-3 6-4
18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      16 W Anke HUBER               6-3 5-7 7-6
18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      QF W Jana NOVOTNA             5-7 6-2 6-3
18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      SF W Steffi GRAF              6-2 6-4
[color=blue]18 Mar 1999 Key Biscayne      FR W Serena WILLIAMS          6-1 4-6 6-4[/color]
26 Jul 1999 Stanford          16 W Katarina SREBOTNIK       6-1 7-6
26 Jul 1999 Stanford          QF W Anna KOURNIKOVA          6-1 6-3
26 Jul 1999 Stanford          SF W Amanda COETZER           6-1 6-4
[color=red]26 Jul 1999 Stanford          FR L Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-7 2-6[/color]
02 Aug 1999 San Diego         16 W Natalia ZVEREVA          7-5 6-1
02 Aug 1999 San Diego         QF W Sandrine TESTUD          7-5 6-1
[color=blue]02 Aug 1999 San Diego         SF W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-4 7-5[/color]
02 Aug 1999 San Diego         FR L Martina HINGIS           4-6 0-6
23 Aug 1999 New Haven         16 W Maria SANCHEZ LORENZO    6-1 6-1
23 Aug 1999 New Haven         QF W Magui SERNA              6-0 6-4
23 Aug 1999 New Haven         SF W Monica SELES             6-1 6-3
[color=blue]23 Aug 1999 New Haven         FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-2 7-5[/color]
30 Aug 1999 US Open          128 W Tatiana POUTCHEK         6-1 6-2
30 Aug 1999 US Open           64 W Anne-Gaelle SIDOT        6-4 6-3
30 Aug 1999 US Open           32 O Henrieta NAGYOVA         Walkover
30 Aug 1999 US Open           16 W Mary-Joe FERNANDEZ       2-6 6-1 6-0
30 Aug 1999 US Open           QF W Barbara SCHETT           6-4 6-3
30 Aug 1999 US Open           SF L Martina HINGIS           1-6 6-4 3-6

year  w – L  w/o  
1999 20 – 03  01
Totl 53 - 18

24 Jul 2000 Stanford          16 W Tatiana PANOVA           6-2 6-2
24 Jul 2000 Stanford          QF W Amy FRAZIER              6-7 6-4 7-6
24 Jul 2000 Stanford          SF W Anna KOURNIKOVA          6-4 7-5
[color=blue]24 Jul 2000 Stanford          FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-1 6-4[/color]
31 Jul 2000 San Diego         16 W Amanda COETZER           6-0 6-4
31 Jul 2000 San Diego         QF W Conchita MARTINEZ        6-3 6-0
31 Jul 2000 San Diego         SF W Amy FRAZIER              6-2 6-3
31 Jul 2000 San Diego         FR W Monica SELES             6-0 6-7 6-3
21 Aug 2000 New Haven         16 W Elena LIKHOVTSEVA        6-3 7-5
21 Aug 2000 New Haven         QF W Patty SCHNYDER           6-4 6-2
21 Aug 2000 New Haven         SF W Amanda COETZER           6-3 6-4
21 Aug 2000 New Haven         FR W Monica SELES             6-2 6-4
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open        128 W Anne-Gaelle SIDOT        6-3 6-4
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         64 W Kveta PESCHKE            6-1 6-1
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         32 W Meghann SHAUGHNESSY      7-6 6-1
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         16 W Magui SERNA              6-2 6-2
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         QF W Nathalie TAUZIAT         6-4 1-6 6-1
22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         SF W Martina HINGIS           4-6 6-3 7-5
[color=blue]22 Aug 2000 U.S. Open         FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-4 7-5[/color]

year  w – L    
2000 19 – 00 
Totl 72 - 18

08 Mar 2001 Indian Wells      64 W Sarah PITKOWSKI-MALCOR   6-0 6-1
08 Mar 2001 Indian Wells      32 W Cara BLACK               6-4 3-6 6-0
08 Mar 2001 Indian Wells      16 W Rachel MC QUILLAN        6-4 6-2
08 Mar 2001 Indian Wells      QF W Elena DEMENTIEVA         6-0 6-3
[color=green]08 Mar 2001 Indian Wells      SF L Serena WILLIAMS          Walkover[/color]
21 Mar 2001 Miami             64 W Miriam OREMANS           6-2 6-0
21 Mar 2001 Miami             32 W Sandra CACIC             6-2 6-2
21 Mar 2001 Miami             16 W Tathiana GARBIN          7-5 7-6
[color=blue]21 Mar 2001 Miami             QF W Jelena DOKIC             6-2 6-3[/color]
21 Mar 2001 Miami             SF W Martina HINGIS           6-3 7-6
[color=blue]21 Mar 2001 Miami             FR W Jennifer CAPRIATI        4-6 6-1 7-6[/color]
23 Jul 2001 Stanford          16 W Kristina BRANDI          6-4 6-3
[I][b]23 Jul 2001 Stanford          QF L Meghann SHAUGHNESSY      6-2 5-7 6-7[/I][/b]
30 Jul 2001 San Diego         32 W Elena BOVINA             6-1 6-2
30 Jul 2001 San Diego         16 W Daja BEDANOVA            6-1 6-3
30 Jul 2001 San Diego         QF W Nathalie TAUZIAT         6-2 6-2
[color=blue]30 Jul 2001 San Diego         SF W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-2 7-5[/color]
30 Jul 2001 San Diego         FR W Monica SELES             6-2 6-3
[color=blue]19 Aug 2001 New Haven         FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT        7-6 6-4[/color]
27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open        128 W Lenka DLHOPOLCOVA        6-2 6-3
27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         64 W Meilen TU                6-2 6-2
27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         32 W Lisa RAYMOND             6-3 6-4
27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         16 W Sandrine TESTUD          6-4 6-0
[color=blue]27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         QF W Kim CLIJSTERS            6-3 6-1[/color]
[color=blue]27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         SF W Jennifer CAPRIATI        6-4 6-2[/color]
[color=blue]27 Aug 2001 U.S. Open         FR W Serena WILLIAMS          6-2 6-4[/color]

year   w – L    
2001  24 – 02
Totl  96 - 20

20 Mar 2002 Miami             64 W Eva DYRBERG              4-6 6-2 6-1
20 Mar 2002 Miami             32 W Mariana DIAZ-OLIVA       6-2 1-0 Ret
20 Mar 2002 Miami             16 W Amanda COETZER           6-2 6-0
20 Mar 2002 Miami             QF W Elena DEMENTIEVA         5-7 6-3 6-2
[color=green]20 Mar 2002 Miami             SF L Serena WILLIAMS          2-6 2-6[/color]
22 Jul 2002 Stanford          16 W Meghann SHAUGHNESSY      6-4 6-1
22 Jul 2002 Stanford          QF W Anna KOURNIKOVA          6-3 6-4
22 Jul 2002 Stanford          SF W Lisa RAYMOND             6-3 6-0
[color=blue]22 Jul 2002 Stanford          FR W Kim CLIJSTERS            6-3 6-3[/color]
29 Jul 2002 San Diego         32 W Janette HUSAROVA         6-4 6-1
29 Jul 2002 San Diego         16 W Anne KREMER              6-3 6-2
[color=blue]29 Jul 2002 San Diego         QF W Kim CLIJSTERS            6-3 5-7 6-4[/color]
[color=blue]29 Jul 2002 San Diego         SF W Lindsay DAVENPORT        6-2 6-1[/color]
[color=blue]29 Jul 2002 San Diego         FR W Jelena DOKIC             6-2 6-2[/color]
19 Aug 2002 New Haven         16 W Meghann SHAUGHNESSY      6-2 6-4
19 Aug 2002 New Haven         QF W Laura GRANVILLE          6-2 6-1
[color=blue]19 Aug 2002 New Haven         SF W Daniela HANTUCHOVA       6-3 6-3[/color]
[color=blue]19 Aug 2002 New Haven         FR W Lindsay DAVENPORT        7-5 6-0[/color]
26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open        128 W Mirjana LUCIC            6-0 6-0
26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         64 W Alicia MOLIK             6-1 6-2
26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         32 W Martina MULLER           6-1 6-2
[color=blue]26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         16 W Chanda RUBIN             6-2 4-6 7-5[/color]
26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         QF W Monica SELES             6-2 6-3
[color=blue]26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         SF W Amelie MAURESMO          6-3 5-7 6-4[/color]
[color=green]26 Aug 2002 U.S. Open         FR L Serena WILLIAMS          4-6 3-6[/color]

year   w – L    
2002  23 – 02
Totl 119 - 22

19 Mar 2003 Miami             64 W Shinobu ASAGOE           6-3 6-1
19 Mar 2003 Miami             32 W Emmanuelle GAGLIARDI     6-3 6-2
[I][b]19 Mar 2003 Miami             16 L Meghann SHAUGHNESSY      6-7 1-6[/b][/I]

year   w – L    
2003  02 – 01
Totl 121 - 23
Taking the players with any chance of wining the US Open as a group, you have to go back to Stanford 1999 to find a win over Venus. And the ONLY player who’d be a top sixteen seed at the US Open this year who’s EVER beaten Venus on this surface is Lindsay. Who’s lost to Venus the last SEVEN straight times outdoors on this surface.

In the last six years she’s lost 12 times on this surface.

With Serena out of the Open, there’s just no one else who has a chance against Venus in big match on this surface.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
*bump*
 

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She is devastating on hardcourts when fit obviously. I think her US Open campaign will be determined about how confident she feels about her injury being 95-100% playable. If she's in that range of confidence I think she will win. I'm expecting major assaults on the title from Venus, Jennifer & Lindsay actually as Serena's withdrawal has provided them with an unexpected BIG chance and I'm sure they'll be extra keen. They'll enjoy the pressure being transferred to the Belgian duo.
 

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if venus is fit i don't see how she will loose- no one runs faster/hits harder/serves better than her in the draw..on clay or rebound i would give the other players a slight chance but unless she is still injured i can't see how someone will outplay venus on hardcourts...
Toronto is the test, if venus is fine and finds her range quickly the usta might awell send the throphey to the williams household now....
 

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villa said:
if venus is fit i don't see how she will loose- no one runs faster/hits harder/serves better than her in the draw..on clay or rebound i would give the other players a slight chance but unless she is still injured i can't see how someone will outplay venus on hardcourts...
Toronto is the test, if venus is fine and finds her range quickly the usta might awell send the throphey to the williams household now....
ITA!
A healthy Venus is a force of nature!
Never underestimate the Queen!

Great post volcana!
 
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Two things against her are her injury and that she will be without her usual hitting partner during the preparation period. But I agree, she will be an overwhelming favourite if 100% healthy.
 

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People are so busy hyping the Belgians that people tend to forget about Venus sick record on the hardcourts. If she is serving well,forhand is good, and playing pain free, she will win this. Motivation-not a problem since little sister is out. Main competitors- The Belgians- Henin-Hardenne, whooped the tar outta her at the Austrailian in fact, has only taken two sets off of Venus on any type of hardcourt. Clisjsters- currently 2-0 this year and while she is in great form, got thumped 6-1 in the third by an obviously injured Venus at Wimbeldon. If Venus is healthy, she is taking this thing home(hopefully)
 

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Venus has always dominated the hardcourts, but her confidence has taken a knockback since last year and I don't think she has that much confidence in her game, etc. It all depends on how her injury has shaped up.

Whichever way it goes, I just can't see Venus losing before the SFs at least. She's just too good on hardcourts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
She's actually made the semis or better every time she's played the US Open.
 

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Interesting record against Hingis on American hardcourts.



If Venus is healthy, she should win. But before every US Open she has had very good preparation for it. I don't know what warm-up events she plans on playing (didn't she withdraw from Toronto?) but I'm not sure if without the warm-up wins she can win the US Open.


Plus health is a HUGE factor IMO. If Venus doesnt play a warm-up event I don't see her as the favorite to win.
 

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people were saying how her confidence was knocked backed, and almost gone after loosing wimbledon to serena, and the third straight time 2 serena. but last year, she won every hardcourt tournie she entered before the usopen. then she got to the final and beat serena. no-one has shown anything against venus on a surface other than clay except for Serena. The US Open is her's to win. the injury is the only factor. her game is hella lot betta than the rest of the field combined :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Venus beat everyone she faced but Serena at Wimbledon. With the same injury.
 

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Not gpnna say it's a shoo in that Venus will win the Open. But people would be dumb to not list her as a definite favorite to win the title.

If Venus can beat Kim Clijsters injured at Wimbledon, there is no telling what the elder sister can do if she happens to be at the Open injured as well.

My biggest concern about a stomach pull is that if she reaggravates at the Open, won't the surface at the Open be a lot tougher on her stomach then say the grass at Wimbledon?

Oh and Volcana, sheesh you have a lot of time on your hands lol ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
per4ever said:
Great, amazing stats.

BUT it's all history. It doesn't mean it will continue like that. Other players are getting better, and she WILL get beaten more often on hardcourt sooner or later :)
Likely sooner. She IS 23. But not this year. Injured or no, no one playing this year comes anywhere near Venus' record on harcourts. It's not even close.
 

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Thing is, Venus only really aggravated her injury moreso in the SFs. The matches prior to that, Venus looked very comfortable.

My personal theory is that Venus strained it against Lindsay with all the hard hitting and it flared up even moreso against Kim.

The injury will play a big part in whether or not Venus makes it far.

Much as I'd love to see a Jen-Venus-Elena D final ;) I'm not putting my money on either one of them....yet.

In my mind, Venus did not play injured throughout Wimbledon, she was getting well pretty fast, but it only flared up against Kim.

If she's injured from the beginning, there are so many tough competitors who may lose, but could make Venus compensate on other areas or re-aggravate the injury every consecutive match.
 
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