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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
:) Well, not quite.

But I was going over the stats, and she may just have the best clay court career among active players. Depends on how you weight the slams. As reference points, I provide the clay stats for the last truly great clay court player, Graf, and the last really good one, Henin. Take a sec to look at Graf's stats. Her career on clay alone is almost the equal of Henin or Venus' entire careers. Not quite, but almost.

wins player
(29) Graf -------- 6 RG, 3 RG final, 14 T1*, 9 T2
(10) Henin ------- 4 RG, 0 RG final, 5 T1, 2 T2

Then you take a look, and Venus has a pretty good clay court career.

(08) Venus ------- 0 RG, 1 RG final, 2 T1, 4 T2, 2 T3
(03) Serena ------ 1 RG, 0 RG final, 1 T1
(02) Ivanovic ---- 1 RG, 1 RG final, 1 T1, 0 T2, 0 T3, 0 T4, 0 T5
(03) Safina ------ 0 RG, 1 RG final, 1 T1, 0 T2, 0 T3, 1 T4, 1 T5
(05) Jankovic ---- 0 RG, 0 RG final, 3 T1, 0 T2, 1 T3, 0 T4, 1 T5
(01) Kuznetsova -- 0 RG, 1 RG final, 0 T1, 1 T2, 0 T3, 1 T4, 0 T5

As always, corrections are gleefully accepted.
*That number may be off one or two. Hilton Head was played as both a Tier 2 and a Tier 1.

NOTE: Venus won half her clay titles from 2004-2009 after she returned from her 2003 ab injury.

NOTE: I"m treating International events as Tier 3s. Are they better counted Tier 4s?
 

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Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

Ivanovic has a RG final.

Venus has a respectable clay court resume (highest career w/l and greatest # of clay titles among active players), BUT she completely under-performs at RG.

this thread is an invitation to haters, though. :rolleyes:
 

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Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

She's probably the second active player on clay right now behind Serena but only because Venus consistently under performs at Roland Garros. I'm really hoping that this year will change all that.

Just a reminder that 4 out of 6 for Graf came after the stabbing. Her third came at the first grand slam after Monica Seles got stabbed. At the moment when the stabbing happened Seles had won the last 3 French Opens and Graf had 2 titles there.
 

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Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

Venus has had a long career at the top and has by no means disgraced herself on clay, but she is faaaar from being the best clay courter.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

Ivanovic has a RG final.

Venus has a respectable clay court resume (highest career w/l and greatest # of clay titles among active players), BUT she completely under-performs at RG.

this thread is an invitation to haters, though. :rolleyes:
1)Thanx for the correction on AI.

2) Not worried about haters. Number speak for themselves.

3) Maybe Venus underperforms at RG. And maybe she's just been stubborn. How she's playing in Rome this year is a sea change from past years on clay. Venus, pre-2009, played her exact same game on clay as every other surface. It won. It lost. But the game so suited to winning Wimbledon was just not that well suited to RG. And since she doesn't play tune-ups for the big W, clay court season WAS her tune-up.

Am I hyping her to win RG this year? No. But if she had made this tactical switch five years ago, THEN I'd be hyping her to win this year.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

Venus has had a long career at the top and has by no means disgraced herself on clay, but she is faaaar from being the best clay courter.
So who's better on clay? Based on winning tournaments.

Yes, I could answer that question myself, and no, I'm not saying you're wrong, but show me the numbers. I'm interested in whether that's just something you believe, or something you can actually support with on-court results.
 

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Pretty close between Ana, Venus and Serena. Ana has the best RG record plus a title/semi in Berlin, I'd put her first. Venus and Serena have been to all 4 big claycourt finals (RG + 3 Tier I's). Difference between those two is Serena's won the French.

What are Venus' 4 Tier II titles btw?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

Just a reminder that 4 out of 6 for Graf came after the stabbing. Her third came at the first grand slam after Monica Seles got stabbed.
A topic for another thread. However, 'just a reminder', Seles only missed ONE Roland Garros because of the stabbing. It wasn't that serious an injury, physically. A traumatic event, but I can't diminish Graf's accomplishments based on that. Once the physical injury healed, how Seles handled it is on Seles.
 

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:) Well, not quite.

But I was going over the stats, and she may just have the best clay court career among active players. Depends on how you weight the slams. As reference points, I provide the clay stats for the last truly great clay court player, Graf, and the last really good one, Henin. Take a sec to look at Graf's stats. Her career on clay alone is almost the equal of Henin or Venus' entire careers. Not quite, but almost.

wins player
(29) Graf -------- 6 RG, 3 RG final, 14 T1*, 9 T2
(10) Henin ------- 4 RG, 0 RG final, 5 T1, 2 T2

Then you take a look, and Venus has a pretty good clay court career.

(08) Venus ------- 0 RG, 1 RG final, 2 T1, 4 T2, 2 T3
(03) Serena ------ 1 RG, 0 RG final, 1 T1
(02) Ivanovic ---- 1 RG, 1 RG final, 1 T1, 0 T2, 0 T3, 0 T4, 0 T5
(03) Safina ------ 0 RG, 1 RG final, 1 T1, 0 T2, 0 T3, 1 T4, 1 T5
(05) Jankovic ---- 0 RG, 0 RG final, 3 T1, 0 T2, 1 T3, 0 T4, 1 T5
(01) Kuznetsova -- 0 RG, 1 RG final, 0 T1, 0 T2, 0 T3, 1 T4, 0 T5

As always, corrections are gleefully accepted.
*That number may be off one or two. Hilton Head was played as both a Tier 2 and a Tier 1.

NOTE: Venus won half her clay titles from 2004-2009 after she returned from her 2003 ab injury.

NOTE: I"m treating International events as Tier 3s. Are they better counted Tier 4s?
Kuznetsova has just won Stuttgart!
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Kuznetsova has just won Stuttgart!
Oops! Sorry. They just switched to clay this year. I'm used to thinking of it as a hard court tournament.

Stuttgart is a Premier 0.7 ($700,000) I'm going to rate that as a Tier2. The Premier system really does not have equivalence with the Teir system, so it's a bit guesswork.

BTW, at a 'gut' level, I'd say Jankovic, Ivanovic and Kuznetsova were all a bit better than Venus on clay. But the career numbers don't really support that. Venus is right up there. And irrational though it may be, I'd take Venus over Serena on clay.
 

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Venus is 2-9 vs. top10 players since 2003 on clay and has only 10 top10 wins in 11 years.(40 tournaments..) Ana ivanovic has 8 top10 wins alone in 4 years + rgtitle.

Putting venus above serena is possible... Serena's has less then 10 top10 wins on clay in her career and has 1 top10 win since 2002.. It's actually pretty surprising she won the french open.

Venus has been losing to contenders way too much to be considered the best clay court player though, i'd put ana over her.

Venus can turn it around now though,lets see how she does against dinara...
 

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Venus has another major acheivement on clay: she has lost in every single round at RG except the semis. If she does reach the semis and loses, she will be squarely ahead of anyone in the current generation. :worship:
 
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Re: Venus Williams is the BEst Clay Court Player in the World

So who's better on clay? Based on winning tournaments.

Yes, I could answer that question myself, and no, I'm not saying you're wrong, but show me the numbers. I'm interested in whether that's just something you believe, or something you can actually support with on-court results.
Based solely on winning tournaments your stats seem to show that she has won more than other active players. However, a big reason for this is that she has been at the top of the game for a decade, and although she has had some injuries in that time, has generally been seeded very high for the vast majority of that decade, therefore her draws have been easier, and because she is a perfectly capable clay court player, she has taken advantage of that.

However, for a player who has been at the top for a decade, her RG record is very poor and she loses whenever she comes up against a very strong opponent. Seles in 2002 being the only obvious exception. Sure, RG is only one clay court tournament, and she has performed better in others, but it is the yardstick by which clay court players will be judged first and foremost.

I admit, that if you judge purely by numbers of tournaments won on clay, then Venus is the best, going by your stats.....but the reason she has all those titles isn't solely due to her prowess on clay....and she needs to start beating the other top players more often on clay if she is to be taken seriously as the best on clay :p
 

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The Premier system really does not have equivalence with the Teir system, so it's a bit guesswork.
Premier Mandatory + Premier 5 = Tier I
Premier = Tier II
International = Tier III/IV = MM
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Venus is 2-9 vs. top10 players since 2003 on clay and has only 10 top10 wins in 11 years.(40 tournaments..) Ana ivanovic has 8 top10 wins alone in 4 years + rgtitle.

Venus has been losing to contenders way too much to be considered the best clay court player though, i'd put ana over her.
All you've shown is that winning matches and winning tournaments aren't the same thing. AI may have 8 top 10 wins in four years, but she has only paltry two titles on clay to show for it. I expect that record to improve. Dramatically. But winning mtches and tournaments aren't the same thing. Anna Kournikova had a great record against top ten players before injuries set in. But that didn't tanslate into tournament wins.
 

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Discussion Starter #18

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All you've shown is that winning matches and winning tournaments aren't the same thing. AI may have 8 top 10 wins in four years, but she has only paltry two titles on clay to show for it. I expect that record to improve. Dramatically. But winning mtches and tournaments aren't the same thing. Anna Kournikova had a great record against top ten players before injuries set in. But that didn't tanslate into tournament wins.
Hear that AMG ? So you see, you have still a chance to become the GOAT on clay...
 
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