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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Many of you may remember an old thread titled The 20 Greatest *Active Singles* Players on the WTA Tour. The thread was very popular on TennisForum, but I always found the methodology to be a bit flawed. It was a very basic outlook that focused solely on big titles and nothing else. For example, Monica Puig is #12 on this list solely because of her gold medal in Rio. No offense to Ms. Puig, but this is preposterous.

So I set out to find a new, better way to rank the players' careers. I didn't just look at their grand slam titles or their career-high ranking, but I looked at numerous factors. Career singles titles, deep slam runs, weeks in the top ten, and number of top ten victories were all factors that I thought were very important in looking at the overall arch of a player's career.

For the past several months, I've been working to make sure my methodology and the statistics I've compiled are fair, accurate, and complete. And now I'm ready to reveal the results. Starting November 12, 2017, after the completion of the Fed Cup final, I will be revealing the Top 100 active singles players based on my calculations. I hope that this countdown can bring vigorous debate and a lot of fun during the most boring time of the year, the off-season.

Hope to see you all when the countdown begins!

2017 spreadsheet https://orig00.deviantart.net/1125/f/2017/325/e/9/main_file_by_michaelht-dbugske.png
2018 spreadsheet https://orig00.deviantart.net/007b/f/2018/330/7/7/1table_by_michaelht-dct04dr.png
2019 spreadsheet https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0ebe96bd-42f2-48d0-8768-76967ef4fcdd/ddl1lg8-8e7f8096-b7e4-418a-a5fa-8432b3846d39.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzBlYmU5NmJkLTQyZjItNDhkMC04NzY4LTc2OTY3ZWY0ZmNkZFwvZGRsMWxnOC04ZTdmODA5Ni1iN2U0LTQxOGEtYTVmYS04NDMyYjM4NDZkMzkucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.hfpAGKn4NR_SeF9C-kvCTVEv4bjb7N5G6GD3VaJDqWA


THE LIST 2019

01. serena WILLIAMS (united states)
02. venus WILLIAMS (united states)
03. maria SHARAPOVA (russia)
04. petra KVITOVA (czechia)
05. victoria AZARENKA (belarus)
06. caroline WOZNIACKI (denmark)
07. simona HALEP (romania)
08. svetlana KUZNETSOVA (russia)
09. angelique KERBER (germany)
10. garbine MUGURUZA (spain)

11. naomi OSAKA (japan)
12. karolina PLISKOVA (czechia)
13. samantha STOSUR (australia)
14. elina SVITOLINA (ukraine)
15. vera ZVONAREVA (russia)
16. sloane STEPHENS (united states)
17. ashleigh BARTY (australia)
18. sara ERRANI (italy)
19. jelena OSTAPENKO (latvia)
20. bianca ANDREESCU (canada)

21. madison KEYS (united states)
22. kiki BERTENS (netherlands)
23. anastasia PAVLYUCHENKOVA (russia)
24. johanna KONTA (united kingdom)
25. belinda BENCIC (switzerland)
26. caroline GARCIA (france)
27. andrea PETKOVIC (germany)
28. ekaterina MAKAROVA (russia)
29. carla SUAREZ NAVARRO (spain)
30. sabine LISICKI (germany)

31. julia GOERGES (germany)
32. eugenie BOUCHARD (canada)
33. kaia KANEPI (estonia)
34. aryna SABALENKA (belarus)
35. timea BACSINSZKY (switzerland)
36. coco VANDEWEGHE (united states)
37. elise MERTENS (belgium)
38. anastasija SEVASTOVA (latvia)
39. daria KASATKINA (russia)
40. alize CORNET (france)

41. yanina WICKMAYER (belgium)
42. barbora STRYCOVA (czechia)
43. magdalena RYBARIKOVA (slovakia)
44. kristina MLADENOVIC (france)
45. lesia TSURENKO (ukraine)
46. shuai PENG (china)
47. marketa VONDROUSOVA (czechia)
48. mona BARTHEL (germany)
49. alison VAN UYTVANCK (belgium)
50. shuai ZHANG (china)

51. monica PUIG (puerto rico)
52. pauline PARMENTIER (france)
53. irina-camelia BEGU (romania)
54. alison RISKE (united states)
55. su-wei HSIEH (taiwan)
56. laura SIEGEMUND (germany)
57. camila GIORGI (italy)
58. yulia PUTINTSEVA (kazakhstan)
59. kirsten FLIPKENS (belgium)
60. qiang WANG (china)

61. donna VEKIC (croatia)
62. sofia KENIN (united states)
63. monica NICULESCU (romania)
64. timea BABOS (hungary)
65. daria GAVRILOVA (australia)
66. sorana CIRSTEA (romania)
67. amanda ANISIMOVA (united states)
68. dayana YASTREMSKA (ukraine)
69. heather WATSON (united kingdom)
70. polona HERCOG (slovenia)

71. anna-karolina SCHMIEDLOVA (slovakia)
72. katerina SINIAKOVA (czechia)
73. saisai ZHENG (china)
74. petra MARTIC (croatia)
75. danielle COLLINS (united states)
76. mihaela BUZARNESCU (romania)
77. lara ARRUABARRENA (spain)
78. karolina MUCHOVA (czechia)
79. johanna LARSSON (sweden)
80. jil TEICHMANN (switzerland)

81. margarita GASPARYAN (russia)
82. rebecca PETERSON (sweden)
83. greta ARN (hungary)
84. nao HIBINO (japan)
85. anett KONTAVEIT (estonia)
86. christina MCHALE (united states)
87. aleksandra KRUNIC (serbia)
88. maria SAKKARI (greece)
89. kristyna PLISKOVA (czechia)
90. misaki DOI (japan)

91. lauren DAVIS (united states)
92. tatjana MARIA (germany)
93. magda LINETTE (poland)
94. viktorija GOLUBIC (switzerland)
95. shelby ROGERS (united states)
96. yafan WANG (china)
97. zarina DIYAS (kazakhstan)
98. elena RYBAKINA (kazakhstan)
99. kurumi NARA (japan)
100. coco GAUFF (united states)
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Damn, I was overly excited for a minute. I thought we would get a good proposition of replacing the deeply flawed ranking system but eh...this sounds fun as well:shrug:
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Curious to see your list and your criteria.

I hope you properly consider what is, for me, the most relevant one: wins over top.

Not just over top 10, but also over top 20, top 50 and, finally, over top 100.

The best of course would be head to head, but obviously it is a task feasible for a limited number of players, not for one hundred!

For me is unacceptable a ranking where a player like Tatjana Maria is at position 48, when she has a miserable 0.5 W/L ratio vs top 100, but is ahead of Barthel, 0.93 W/L.

Much lower ranked players have a better W/L ratio over top 100, for example Larsson, 0.66 W/L, ranked 78, or Giorgi, 0.95 W/L, ranked 77.

Even Nara, ranked 102, has a top 100 W/L ratio of 0.67, better than Maria!

By the way, have you also taken into account the ELO ratings of players, as published by Tennis Abstract: WTA Elo Ratings
and by https://tenniseloranking.blogspot.it/2017/10/womens-elo-rankings-23102017.html ?

According to these ratings Tatjana Maria should be placed at #133 and #143!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Curious to see your list and your criteria.

I hope you properly consider what is, for me, the most relevant one: wins over top.

Not just over top 10, but also over top 20, top 50 and, finally, over top 100.

The best of course would be head to head, but obviously it is a task feasible for a limited number of players, not for one hundred!

For me is unacceptable a ranking where a player like Tatjana Maria is at position 48, when she has a miserable 0.5 W/L ratio vs top 100, but is ahead of Barthel, 0.93 W/L.

Much lower ranked players have a better W/L ratio over top 100, for example Larsson, 0.66 W/L, ranked 78, or Giorgi, 0.95 W/L, ranked 77.

Even Nara, ranked 102, has a top 100 W/L ratio of 0.67, better than Maria!

By the way, have you also taken into account the ELO ratings of players, as published by Tennis Abstract: WTA Elo Ratings
and by https://tenniseloranking.blogspot.it/2017/10/womens-elo-rankings-23102017.html ?

According to these ratings Tatjana Maria should be placed at #133 and #143!
My rankings will be looking at career achievements, not just any one particular year. That's why I'll be looking at Top 10 wins, because those are a great achievement in someone's career. I'll also be looking at career titles (with points being awarded based on how big the title is), slam performances (quarterfinals or better), and weeks spent in the top 10 of the WTA rankings. I was inspired by Tennis Fool's thread, which only looked at grand slams and gold medals as a way of judging a player's career. That was a building block for what I've created.

I'd also like to add that these rankings will have a bias towards players who have been playing longer, as it is a cumulative look at a player's career. Longer career = more achievements (potentially).
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Its very subjective. I was thinking about this WTA Finals, is anybody missing who can win?
Konta is off form, Stephens hasnt won a set since NY. Serena hasnt practiced most of the year. Sharapova looks off form. Azarenka hasnt been playing
Who is going to win is different from career accomplishments
You can see that clearly at the last 3 majors, 2 of the winners had their biggest results at Charleston before they won a major
Look at the last Olympics, this years IW. Past accomplishments dont predict much in todays WTA
Thats why they want a small field in Singapore. Its a guarantee the winner has a better previous result than a Charleston final

Career accomplishments, Venus is by far the best in Singapore. 5 slamless players
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Damn, I was overly excited for a minute. I thought we would get a good proposition of replacing the deeply flawed ranking system but eh...this sounds fun as well:shrug:
Well we only have the "extremely flawed" ranking system of the WTA and the alternative, which is to place the upmost importance on Slams above all else. So in the absence of an alternative, I am looking forward to November 12.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Its very subjective. I was thinking about this WTA Finals, is anybody missing who can win?
Konta is off form, Stephens hasnt won a set since NY. Serena hasnt practiced most of the year. Sharapova looks off form. Azarenka hasnt been playing
Who is going to win is different from career accomplishments
You can see that clearly at the last 3 majors, 2 of the winners had their biggest results at Charleston before they won a major
Look at the last Olympics, this years IW. Past accomplishments dont predict much in todays WTA
Thats why they want a small field in Singapore. Its a guarantee the winner has a better previous result than a Charleston final
I am not denying at all that my list is subjective. Once it is revealed, I'm sure there will be some who will wonder why I chose to give a certain amount of points to one achievement, and less to another achievement, but since I actually took the time to even make a list to begin with, I'm just going to present it and let people come to their own conclusions ;)
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

For me it looks that in order to get a better ranking system we have to take into consideration at least these two things:

1.) The actual form of the female players can drastically change in 2-3 months time. Therefore, not a simple year-long point averaging would be needed, but an averaging with a built in decay factor. (For instance: 100% of the points from the last 3 months, 80% of the points from the previous 3 months, 70% of the points from the previous 3 months, etc.)

2.) When a player wins, not only the stage of the given tournament should be taken into account, but the strength of the opponent as well, measured by her ranking points. (For instance: because on large average the top players play around 50 matches in a year, if somebody beats Simona Halep (No.1, currently having 5675 ranking points), for instance, this victorious player would get an extra 5675/50=113 point. If she defeated the No.42 Catherine Bellis (1205), would get 1205/50=24 point as an extra. This way the lucky factor of the draws were compensated somewhat. (Resulting a more objective ranking.)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

I'm sorry if I've confused anyone, but my goal in creating this thread wasn't to create some new ranking system to replace the current WTA rankings. It's more of a fun off-season thread to rank players by their career accomplishments.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

number of top ten victories
I welcome your idea but this factor is flawed. :shrug:

You can beat top 10 players who played top 50 level and beat top 50 players who played well top 10 level. Forget the value of wins by the rank value.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Curious to see your list and your criteria.

I hope you properly consider what is, for me, the most relevant one: wins over top.

Not just over top 10, but also over top 20, top 50 and, finally, over top 100.
Except there is some hilarity in this model. Girls like Kerber have been gifting no.1 victories through the season, Aga gifting top 10, Kuzzy and Konta doing the same thing late season. Mladenovic been gifting nearly top 10 victories etc. Nothing we can do I guess.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

I'm sorry if I've confused anyone, but my goal in creating this thread wasn't to create some new ranking system to replace the current WTA rankings. It's more of a fun off-season thread to rank players by their career accomplishments.
The career accomplishments can be fairly compared only for the RETIRED players. For the active players any achievement must be regarded as the lower limit (minimum) of their achievements.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Except there is some hilarity in this model. Girls like Kerber have been gifting no.1 victories through the season, Aga gifting top 10, Kuzzy and Konta doing the same thing late season. Mladenovic been gifting nearly top 10 victories etc. Nothing we can do I guess.
This problems were coming from the too long (1 year long) point accumulation time. The actual playing level of the WTA girls can change much faster.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Wozniacki and then Svitolina and Halep should be in top3.
 

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Re: The Top 100 Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

For me it looks that in order to get a better ranking system we have to take into consideration at least these two things:

1.) The actual form of the female players can drastically change in 2-3 months time. Therefore, not a simple year-long point averaging would be needed, but an averaging with a built in decay factor. (For instance: 100% of the points from the last 3 months, 80% of the points from the previous 3 months, 70% of the points from the previous 3 months, etc.)

2.) When a player wins, not only the stage of the given tournament should be taken into account, but the strength of the opponents as well, measured by their ranking points. (For instance: because on large average the top players play around 50 matches in a year, if somebody beats Simona Halep (No.1, currently having 5675 ranking points), for instance, this victorious player would get an extra 5675/50=113 point. If she defeated the No.42 Catherine Bellis (1205), would get 1205/50=24 point as an extra. This way the lucky factor of the draws were compensated somewhat. (Resulting a more objective ranking.)
You can argue about quality points until you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, you can only beat the person on the other side of the net. For instance, do you think it should be worth more points to beat Serena or Simona in next year's AO final? If you argue that the ranking system is flawed then why would you argue you should reward more points for beating the girls who are atop that ranking system?
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Maria
4. Azarenka
5. Kvitova
6. Kuznetsova
7. Kerber
8. Muguruza
9. Wozniacki
10. Radwanska
11. Halep
12. Jankovic
13. Pliskova
14. Stephens
15. Ostapenko

not really difficult:shrug: maybe you can argue switching Kvit and Kuz/Woz and Aga .once you get to the non-slam champions, non-no.1's you are splitting hairs:shrug:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Maria
4. Azarenka
5. Kvitova
6. Kuznetsova
7. Kerber
8. Muguruza
9. Wozniacki
10. Radwanska
11. Halep
12. Jankovic
13. Pliskova
14. Stephens
15. Ostapenko

not really difficult:shrug: maybe you can argue switching Kvit and Kuz/Woz and Aga .once you get to the non-slam champions, non-no.1's you are splitting hairs:shrug:
It's really just a fun way of examining players' careers. It's okay to have fun! :)
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

1. Serena
2. Venus
3. Maria
4. Azarenka
5. Kvitova
6. Kuznetsova
7. Kerber
8. Muguruza
9. Wozniacki
10. Radwanska
11. Halep
12. Jankovic
13. Pliskova
14. Stephens
15. Ostapenko

not really difficult:shrug: maybe you can argue switching Kvit and Kuz/Woz and Aga .once you get to the non-slam champions, non-no.1's you are splitting hairs:shrug:

I know with women "40 is the new 30", but in tennis "15 is the new 100"?!? :scratch::baby::lol:
 

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Re: The Top 100 Greatest Active Singles Players (begins Nov. 12)

Margaret wins.
 
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