[tennismomfan]

I'm a big fan of Carlos but this claim requires some context. After making his huge debut on clay in 2004-2005, Rafa reached the Wimby final in 2006 and 2007, and was beaten by prime Federer both times. He famously beat Roger for the Wimby title in 2008, was sidelined by injury in 2009, and won Wimby again in 2010 (vs Berdych). I don't think Carlos's transition to mastery on grass at an early age was more impressive than this! Yes, Carlos had to face Novak, but not prime Novak. Sinner is no Federer (or Novak) on grass - he may become so, but isn't as of yet.
'

Yeah I was a huge fan of Rafa in those years! Then Andy started doing big things, and that was very exciting too!

But onward and forward. Now we have Alcaraz to enjoy and we’re very lucky for it! Without Alcaraz, we’d just have Sinner dominating every slam, and it’d be very boring. 🥱

I love Alcaraz’s ingenuity, as his game is just so interesting and unpredictable - you never know what he’s going to pull out next - so I’d enjoy it even if he were to win all the time. But actually sinner seems a much more reliable no. 1, so that makes for the perfect foil to root for Alacaraz to overcome.

 

[edenstanwarr]

I'm a big fan of Carlos but this claim requires some context. After making his huge debut on clay in 2004-2005, Rafa reached the Wimby final in 2006 and 2007, and was beaten by prime Federer both times. He famously beat Roger for the Wimby title in 2008, was sidelined by injury in 2009, and won Wimby again in 2010 (vs Berdych). I don't think Carlos's transition to mastery on grass at an early age was more impressive than this! Yes, Carlos had to face Novak, but not prime Novak. Sinner is no Federer (or Novak) on grass - he may become so, but isn't as of yet.
'

Your point about the quality of the opposition is well taken. Nevertheless, I think Alcaraz's net play and variety of shot is better than Rafa's at any age — albeit he is less consistent.

 

[Racquetback]

Your point about the quality of the opposition is well taken. Nevertheless, I think Alcaraz's net play and variety of shot is better than Rafa's at any age — albeit he is less consistent.

Rafa was more than a match for Carlos at the net - great volley skills and an amazing doubles player as a result. Carlos may get there but has a ways to go yet. Agreed about going forward but how quickly we forget lol...

 

[tennismomfan]

Rafa was more than a match for Carlos at the net - great volley skills and an amazing doubles player as a result. Carlos may get there but has a ways to go yet. Agreed about going forward but how quickly we forget lol...

I remember being so sad when Michael Chang was past his peak, then Agassi, then Nadal... Enough sadness for me. I just want to be excited about new talents these days and not get too nostalgic... and Emma, of course. I don't think I will ever "get over" Emma. It will be a very sad day for me indeed when she retires. But then, I didn't know that I was going to fall in love with her before she came along either, so you never know. Maybe there will be another extraordinary young man or young woman that captures my heart and imagination when the time comes.

 

[xenosys]

Your point about the quality of the opposition is well taken. Nevertheless, I think Alcaraz's net play and variety of shot is better than Rafa's at any age — albeit he is less consistent.

Charlie was the most complete tennis player I've ever seen at 18/19 years of age.

Rafa was just as quick around the court, and still had that amazing forehand, but there were definite weaknesses in his game that could be exploited off clay.

 

[Racquetback]

Charlie was the most complete tennis player I've ever seen at 18/19 years of age.

Rafa was just as quick around the court, and still had that amazing forehand, but there were definite weaknesses in his game that could be exploited off clay.

But the original issue under discussion was how quickly Carlos developed his game on grass, and I argue that Rafa losing in Wimby finals to Roger in 2006 (age 20) and 2007, beating Roger for the title in 2008 (age 22) and winning title again in 2010 was a remarkably fast evolution of a grass court game against arguably the best grass player of all time. In contrast, Novak was not at his peak when Carlos won Wimby in 2023 (age 20) and there are fewer players who excel on grass now than there were twenty years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Carlos and think he is great on all surfaces, but there is no need to claim Rafa's game had many weaknesses. It didn't.

 

[eraddict]

But the original issue under discussion was how quickly Carlos developed his game on grass, and I argue that Rafa losing in Wimby finals to Roger in 2006 (age 20) and 2007, beating Roger for the title in 2008 (age 22) and winning title again in 2010 was a remarkably fast evolution of a grass court game against arguably the best grass player of all time. In contrast, Novak was not at his peak when Carlos won Wimby in 2023 (age 20) and there are fewer players who excel on grass now than there were twenty years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Carlos and think he is great on all surfaces, but there is no need to claim Rafa's game had many weaknesses. It didn't.

No weaknesses ... except when playing Dustin Brown. They played 2 times, both times on grass, 0-2.

 

[dontfollowtennis]

But the original issue under discussion was how quickly Carlos developed his game on grass, and I argue that Rafa losing in Wimby finals to Roger in 2006 (age 20) and 2007, beating Roger for the title in 2008 (age 22) and winning title again in 2010 was a remarkably fast evolution of a grass court game against arguably the best grass player of all time. In contrast, Novak was not at his peak when Carlos won Wimby in 2023 (age 20) and there are fewer players who excel on grass now than there were twenty years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Carlos and think he is great on all surfaces, but there is no need to claim Rafa's game had many weaknesses. It didn't.

Djokovic level was pretty high that year, he won the other three Grand Slams and the Finals

 

[Racquetback]

No weaknesses ... except when playing Dustin Brown. They played 2 times, both times on grass, 0-2.

Lol I didn't say Rafa had no weaknesses, I said his game didn't have many weaknesses. And re Brown, in what universe has a great player never lost to an inferior player?! Even Roger on grass had match-up issues, all players do. Re Novak, yes, he was still great in 2023 and had the guile that comes from experience on his side, but he wasn't peak Novak. As far as Carlos vs Rafa, let's just enjoy the ride and see what the record tells us in 15-20 years...

 

[eraddict]

Lol I didn't say Rafa had no weaknesses, I said his game didn't have many weaknesses. And re Brown, in what universe has a great player never lost to an inferior player?! Even Roger on grass had match-up issues, all players do. Re Novak, yes, he was still great in 2023 and had the guile that comes from experience on his side, but he wasn't peak Novak. As far as Carlos vs Rafa, let's just enjoy the ride and see what the record tells us in 15-20 years...

LOL I did not intent to step into the Rafa vs Carlitos argument. Dustin Brown was the ONLY player that Rafa never defeated (with only 2 encounters). So that is in fact more of an argument on how good Rafa was than otherwise. Nobody wanted to play young Rafa. But I like watching Carlitos way more than Rafa (the long boring serve prep gets old) and his game is closer to Federer (my all time fav) than Rafa. Yes Rafa has way more accomplishments and Carlitos may never reach that level, but to me he single-handedly brought back the excitement in men's tennis after the era of the big 3. Way more exciting than Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, and tbh Djokovic.

 

[Racquetback]

LOL I did not intent to step into the Rafa vs Carlitos argument. Dustin Brown was the ONLY player that Rafa never defeated (with only 2 encounters). So that is in fact more of an argument on how good Rafa was than otherwise. Nobody wanted to play young Rafa. But I like watching Carlitos way more than Rafa (the long boring serve prep gets old) and his game is closer to Federer (my all time fav) than Rafa. Yes Rafa has way more accomplishments and Carlitos may never reach that level, but to me he single-handedly brought back the excitement in men's tennis after the era of the big 3. Way more exciting than Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, and tbh Djokovic.

I totally agree on Carlos being more exciting than any of the current players you mention, and would include sinner in that list as well...

 

[zenga10]

But the original issue under discussion was how quickly Carlos developed his game on grass, and I argue that Rafa losing in Wimby finals to Roger in 2006 (age 20) and 2007, beating Roger for the title in 2008 (age 22) and winning title again in 2010 was a remarkably fast evolution of a grass court game against arguably the best grass player of all time. In contrast, Novak was not at his peak when Carlos won Wimby in 2023 (age 20) and there are fewer players who excel on grass now than there were twenty years ago. Don't get me wrong, I love Carlos and think he is great on all surfaces, but there is no need to claim Rafa's game had many weaknesses. It didn't.

Rafa was quite a colorful character when he showed up in his unique long shorts, cut-off Ts, long hair and bandana headband. He looked like a precocious young warrior out there, up against Roger's more conventional tennis aesthetic. It was a great contrast. I saw Roger as an updated version of the elegant line of tennis of Laver - McEnroe - Edberg- Sampras, or at least about as close as it got with most tennis being all baseline by then, Roger did incorporate a serve and volley from early on. Rafa though had great determination it seemed, he would never give up and would win points that Roger thought he had already won.

Carlos tennis though I think can be more incredibly creative and exciting, with his incredible speed and then his touch, even if not as aesthetically pleasing as Roger, he generates a huge 'wow' factor, every match it seems you see shots that you didn't think were possible.

I must watch the 2008 W final again soon to remind myself, I have never re-watched it.

 

[Racquetback]

We all have our favourites, that's a huge part of what makes tennis special particularly in contrast to team sports. I loved both factors in the Roger vs Rafa equation. I hope someone more interesting than Jannik shows up to challenge Carlos.

 

[zenga10]

Here we go...I got over 6 hours of tennis ahead....

Old friend in the stadium to witness his 5-in-a-row being broken, perhaps...

 

[Zaubers]

BORG
the real goat
the only man to win Roland Garros in succession with only a two week break, when there was a real big difference between clay and grass, with wooden rackets no fancy strings.
he started his streak at 17, i think and concluded his string of victories at 23 or 25.
He finished his triumphs with 11 grand slams 5 Wimbledon and 6 french
at that time the highest total was 8 or 9 I think. open era.
He was the first tennis player I followed.
greatest player ever.in each generatrion.

Laver

Borg

Sampras

Federer Nadal Djokovic

Born Borg was a star like Elvis Presley
He brought tennis to the attention of the main media.
He played only a limited number of tournaments battling the tennis Association who tried to force him to play more.
That is why he was no 1 for a limited time.
He was unbeatable on clay.
and dominated at Wimbledon in a serve and volley era from the base line, unbelievable.

 

[zenga10]

When are the Croquet Championships held? They are not televised over here

 

[Racquetback]

BORG
the real goat
the only man to win Roland Garros in succession with only a two week break, when there was a real big difference between clay and grass, with wooden rackets no fancy strings.
he started his streak at 17, i think and concluded his string of victories at 23 or 25.
He finished his triumphs with 11 grand slams 5 Wimbledon and 6 french
at that time the highest total was 8 or 9 I think. open era.
He was the first tennis player I followed.
greatest player ever.in each generatrion.

Laver

Borg

Sampras

Federer Nadal Djokovic

Born Borg was a star like Elvis Presley
He brought tennis to the attention of the main media.
He played only a limited number of tournaments battling the tennis Association who tried to force him to play more.
That is why he was no 1 for a limited time.
He was unbeatable on clay.
and dominated at Wimbledon in a serve and volley era from the base line, unbelievable.

I certainly agree that Borg was a phenom like no other - a veritable shooting star, given how early he chose to retire. And as amazing as his rapid transition from clay to grass was in an era when, as you point out, 1) there was one week less between RG and Wimbledon; and 2) the grass was much much faster than it is now (both difficulties which were, incidentally, still in place for young Rafa but not young Carlos), Borg didn't win his 5 Wimby titles playing from the baseline. He used serve and volley on over 80 percent of his first serves and even some of his second. It's not surprising given the racquet technology of the times, but to me this makes his rapid transition between surfaces even more remarkable.

 

[Racquetback]

https://www.tennis.com/news/articles/chris-evert-bjorn-borg-1974-first-grand-slam-title-french-open-roland-garros

This article is focused on RG rather than Wimbledon but a great article on both Borg and evert

 

[desmondpaul]

 

[xenosys]

Robson's 32 going on 52 in that thumbnail. Really not very flattering at all.