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The current 'world war' is best characterized as

  • * The Industrialized Nations/Corporations vs the Producers of Raw Material

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Secular vs Religious Extremism

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • The West vs Islam

    Votes: 9 69.2%
  • Christianity vs Islam

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Discussion Starter #1
There's a war going on, all over the planet. Africa, the South Pacific, the Middle East, even Fortress America found it could be breached. But it happens that the greatest militray force is concentrated on the War on Iraq.*

There's more going on than the overthrow of a sovereign nationthat had not the means to htreaten it's invaders. I think that conflict and those around the world associated with it, can be veiwed in a couple different ways.

1 Secularization vs Religious Extremism
2 Globalism vs Nationalism
3 The Industrialized vs the Producers of Raw Material
4 The West vs Islam
5 Christianity vs Islam
6 Corporations vs Nations

I should re-phrase that. All these conflicts are actually going on. The question is which one predominates.





1 Secularization vs Religious Extremism
My personal choice. In almost every case, religious extremism is what drives terrorism. And it certainly colors the battle with Al Qaeda, on both sides. It is interesting, ina horribly abstract sense, because from a secualr persepctive, perversion of religion motivate the greatest dangers in the world today. Note I said 'world', not 'the United States'. I would therefore include George Bush in that grouping of religious extremists. I certainly wouldn't want to live in any country he woke up tomorrow and decided was a threat.)




2 Globalism vs Nationalism



New. World. Order. (You have to read it with a deep bass voice to get the effect.) Paranoia (or foresight) regarding 'globalism' points up on this board from time to time. Rarely defined. But local cultures are increasingly under pressure from the dominant cultures of the world. Certainly the influence of American culture is decried every bit as much as it is embraced, worldwide. However, I don't think we're shooting over it.




3 The Industrialized vs the Producers of Raw Material



Well, the war IS about oil. So you have to give some credence to this.




4 The West vs Islam



I suspect this dovetails with combatting 'globalism'. However, Hussein was driving Iraq toward increasing secularization, so obvious no 'vs Islam' arguemnt holds there.




5 Christianity vs Islam



Same deal as 4. It's an issue in the world, but not in Iraq.




6 Corporations vs Nations



Well, it is true that the War in Iraq is, among other things, a giant monetary transfer from the American taxpayer to multi-National corporations.




Well, I think we have to broaden our focus to get a grip on this. Iraq is too limiting. The 9/11 attacks were, I think, a strike by religions extremists against what they vew as the most powerful secular enitity on the planet. American Culture.





This is complicated, however, by the fact that there are a lot of religious extremists IN America, who decry the increasing secularization of American culture. And those forces currently control the government.

Yet, that government, rather than engaging in conflict withthose who've actually attacked us, instead attacks a third party poor in military force, but rich in oil.

So we're down, I think, to four views.

* The Industrialized Nations/Corporations vs the Producers of Raw Material

* The Secular vs Religious Extremism

* The West vs Islam

* Christianity vs Islam

When you're considering this, remember Korea, the Phillipines, Chechnya, Mexico, The Sudan and Argentina. There's a lot going on. But at the same time, the concentration of military forces is in Iraq so that has to be given great weight.

_______________________________________________________________

*NOTE: I'm not calling it 'the War on Terror' since it's not. Murdering civiliains and/or supporting those who do has been a tactic used by the United States for most of its history. (Start with the Inidian Wars, pass through or Augusto Pinochet in Chile, veer by the 'contras', wave as you pass Saddam Hussein in the 80's and 90's and land at Abu Ghraib.)
 
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I say the West vs. Islam. The secular/religious extremism fight is a domestic struglle in the US, not a global issue.
 

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the liberal minds vs Mr. Bush's confrontation course
the clash of civilizations is heating up with those hardliners.
 

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It will vary, and include coalesence of forces @ times. (Old saying: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"). For example, secular, West, and Christianity are defacto merged in Afghanistan, opposed by an extremist Islamic camp.

And As the latter recruits in places like Indonesia and the Phillipines, it will gladly invoke globalization As Another evil worthy of Jihad. (in fact, an evil totally interwoven with the other 3 Ovalapping Ones).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
justinhosbey said:
I say the West vs. Islam. The secular/religious extremism fight is a domestic struglle in the US, not a global issue.
I would consider Osams bin Laden a religious extremist.

I would consider Shoko Asahara a religious extremist.

The secular/religious extremism fight is a global. Ask the bombing victoms in Spain, or Bali, or the UNited States, or the victims of the Sarin gas attack in the Tokyo subway.

And since a number of Islamic countries, and literally millions of Islamic people are working on fighting on OUR side vs Al Qaeda, it VERY hard to justify the argeument that this is ISlam vs the West.

However, I would be interested in seeing how you do that.
 

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1. American culture is secular? Not too sure about that, I think it's still too influenced by Christianity.

2. Corporations vs. Nations. That's what I'm most interested in. But is this really a war? It's rather a question of how much control does corporations have over nations? I mean I heard some quotes from a US defence general or someone, and Allawah in Iraq today, and picked up their use of words such as "reconstruction" and "infrastructure". Gee, I wonder who stands to benefit from those words the most. U.S. corporations of course. In my opinion, this wasn't the liberation of Iraqi people, it was the opening up of an economy for US corporations to exploit.

 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sam L said:
1. American culture is secular? Not too sure about that, I think it's still too influenced by Christianity.

Don't compare it to Europe. Compare it to itself a hundred years. "Seperation of Church and State" was a Protestant political issue to keep Catholics out of government. The Protestant influence over the government was so pervasive it wasn't even open to question.

School-led prayer isn't even legal in public schools now. We're actually trying to SEPARATE Church and State, with is decidedly NOT what the Protestants had in mind.

When James Dale sued the Bioy Scouts I PRAYED they'd settle out of court. Becasue the boy Scouts were going to win. By declaring themselves a religious institution. And they were promptly going to be thrown out of an awful lot of facilities for either violating local laws banning discrimination based on gender orientation, or because as a explicitly religious instituion, tax money couldn't be spent on them. They were thrown out of hundreds of public schools they'd met in for decades.

James Dale won nothing.

The Boy Scouts of America Inc won nothing

Thousands of scouts lost big time.

That was a decision of a secular country.

Sam L said:
2. Corporations vs. Nations. That's what I'm most interested in. But is this really a war? It's rather a question of how much control does corporations have over nations? I mean I heard some quotes from a US defence general or someone, and Allawah in Iraq today, and picked up their use of words such as "reconstruction" and "infrastructure". Gee, I wonder who stands to benefit from those words the most. U.S. corporations of course. In my opinion, this wasn't the liberation of Iraqi people, it was the opening up of an economy for US corporations to exploit.
Corporations are more of a disease than an opponent.
 

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Volcana said:
There's a war going on, all over the planet. Africa, the South Pacific, the Middle East, even Fortress America found it could be breached. But it happens that the greatest militray force is concentrated on the War on Iraq.*

There's more going on than the overthrow of a sovereign nationthat had not the means to htreaten it's invaders. I think that conflict and those around the world associated with it, can be veiwed in a couple different ways.

1 Secularization vs Religious Extremism
2 Globalism vs Nationalism
3 The Industrialized vs the Producers of Raw Material
4 The West vs Islam
5 Christianity vs Islam
6 Corporations vs Nations

I should re-phrase that. All these conflicts are actually going on. The question is which one predominates.





1 Secularization vs Religious Extremism
My personal choice. In almost every case, religious extremism is what drives terrorism. And it certainly colors the battle with Al Qaeda, on both sides. It is interesting, ina horribly abstract sense, because from a secualr persepctive, perversion of religion motivate the greatest dangers in the world today. Note I said 'world', not 'the United States'. I would therefore include George Bush in that grouping of religious extremists. I certainly wouldn't want to live in any country he woke up tomorrow and decided was a threat.)




2 Globalism vs Nationalism



New. World. Order. (You have to read it with a deep bass voice to get the effect.) Paranoia (or foresight) regarding 'globalism' points up on this board from time to time. Rarely defined. But local cultures are increasingly under pressure from the dominant cultures of the world. Certainly the influence of American culture is decried every bit as much as it is embraced, worldwide. However, I don't think we're shooting over it.




3 The Industrialized vs the Producers of Raw Material



Well, the war IS about oil. So you have to give some credence to this.




4 The West vs Islam



I suspect this dovetails with combatting 'globalism'. However, Hussein was driving Iraq toward increasing secularization, so obvious no 'vs Islam' arguemnt holds there.




5 Christianity vs Islam



Same deal as 4. It's an issue in the world, but not in Iraq.




6 Corporations vs Nations



Well, it is true that the War in Iraq is, among other things, a giant monetary transfer from the American taxpayer to multi-National corporations.




Well, I think we have to broaden our focus to get a grip on this. Iraq is too limiting. The 9/11 attacks were, I think, a strike by religions extremists against what they vew as the most powerful secular enitity on the planet. American Culture.





This is complicated, however, by the fact that there are a lot of religious extremists IN America, who decry the increasing secularization of American culture. And those forces currently control the government.

Yet, that government, rather than engaging in conflict withthose who've actually attacked us, instead attacks a third party poor in military force, but rich in oil.

So we're down, I think, to four views.

* The Industrialized Nations/Corporations vs the Producers of Raw Material

* The Secular vs Religious Extremism

* The West vs Islam

* Christianity vs Islam

When you're considering this, remember Korea, the Phillipines, Chechnya, Mexico, The Sudan and Argentina. There's a lot going on. But at the same time, the concentration of military forces is in Iraq so that has to be given great weight.

_______________________________________________________________

*NOTE: I'm not calling it 'the War on Terror' since it's not. Murdering civiliains and/or supporting those who do has been a tactic used by the United States for most of its history. (Start with the Inidian Wars, pass through or Augusto Pinochet in Chile, veer by the 'contras', wave as you pass Saddam Hussein in the 80's and 90's and land at Abu Ghraib.)
Well,......................I would say that the present world war,after all,that IS what is going on,is really three pronged.

1. West Vs.Islam

There is no doubt,at least in my mind,that the west is trying to eradicate threats.Like it or not,Islam is viewed as being a threat by the western world. It is completely a different religion and culture,and to be honest,the western world has always attempted to eradicate that which it does not understand.

2. Globalism Vs.Nationalism

As I have made fairly clear,I look upon globalism and the globalist agenda with much disdain.I pull no punches on my feelings on the move toward globalism. The globalist agenda is always lurking in the back of my mind.Look at it this way,if one nation or a certain group of nations were to gain control over "all" governements,economies,religions,et cetera,would that not fulfill the vision that globalists have spewed out of their rotten mouths for decades?

3. Christianity Vs.Islam

Let me say from the outset,while I am certainly not an orthodox christian,in any sense of the word, I do consider myself christian because I have faith in Jesus Christ.However,I think,much as was the case during the crusades and the inquisition,Christianity is throwing its weight around. Anyone who says that the present war is not a religious war is seriously misled.Of course it is a religious war!!! Hell,you would be hard pressed to find a war in history that was not a religious war.​
 

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I don't really think it is about any of the wars you mentioned. I think there is one global war - war against everyone else for your own economic interest, In this war in every battle of it a country can have allies and enemies, and those enemies may vary from battle to battle. But the objectivve still stays the same - fighting for the limited sources of wealth.
 

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ys said:
I don't really think it is about any of the wars you mentioned. I think there is one global war - war against everyone else for your own economic interest, In this war in every battle of it a country can have allies and enemies, and those enemies may vary from battle to battle. But the objectivve still stays the same - fighting for the limited sources of wealth.
Good post.There is a lot that can be said in favor of that. ;)
 
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