[Madan]

I'm a bit surprised to see this thread as some players has/had doubtful gender and it has never been allowed to question that.

OP hasn't questioned the notion that someone may be a transwoman. Neither would I. But that doesn't mean they have only the same physical endowments as a person born female.

Yes, some posts have dubbed transwomen as not real women and that's inappropriate. But maybe they are pushing back at posters who try to argue all around the difference in physical strength.

 

[Don Eladio]

OP hasn't questioned the notion that someone may be a transwoman. Neither would I. But that doesn't mean they have only the same physical endowments as a person born female.

Yes, some posts have dubbed transwomen as not real women and that's inappropriate. But maybe they are pushing back at posters who try to argue all around the difference in physical strength.

To suggest that Caitlyn Jenner may be not a "real woman" is "inappropriate"???

 

[Madan]

To suggest that Caitlyn Jenner may be not a "real woman" is "inappropriate"???

It feels inappropriate to you because she is high profile and you know she had a male identity. Trust me, you wouldn't even know someone was a transwoman from appearances in many cases. Most of them sincerely wanted to transition to a female identity. The problem is the male and female bifurcations in sports had always to do with physical strength and not the social construct of gender (aka looking like a woman).

 

[SimoSunshine]

Is this still a discussion? Gezas....
Now imagine the young 17yo David Popovici double World champ claiming to be a woman and entering the women's competition... Nobody would be able to beat his records from now since 2969 unless another Popovici is born...
Why some ppl have so hard time to comprehend such simple basic facts?

 

[Don Eladio]

It feels inappropriate to you because she is high profile and you know she had a male identity. Trust me, you wouldn't even know someone was a transwoman from appearances in many cases. Most of them sincerely wanted to transition to a female identity. The problem is the male and female bifurcations in sports had always to do with physical strength and not the social construct of gender (aka looking like a woman).

Of course in many cases I would not be able to realize that a person who looks like a woman is not a real woman.
But that is not the point.

The point is that men and women are genetically quite different. And the fact that about 0.01 of the population is intersexual doesn't change that.
Today we have the medical knowledge to help a man who want to look and live like a woman (and vice versa). I appreciate this. These trans people should not be insulted, made fun of, discriminated when looking for a job etc.. Of course not.
But competing as a former man in women's sport? After a transition which took place after the start of male puberty?
I can't get my head around it how someone might agree with that. What is wrong with our Western culture? Where did we take the wrong turn?

BTW, people who help a young kid pre-puberty to transition should go to jail. The kid's "consent" to such a procedure notwithstanding. It is the same as the US concept of statutory rape. There the consent of the youngster doesn't absolve the adult from the crime either.

 

[Madan]

Of course in many cases I would not be able to realize that a person who looks like a woman is not a real woman.
But that is not the point.

The point is that men and women are genetically quite different. And the fact that about 0.01 of the population is intersexual doesn't change that.
Today we have the medical knowledge to help a man who want to look and live like a woman (and vice versa). I appreciate this. These trans people should not be insulted, made fun of, discriminated when looking for a job etc.. Of course not.
But competing as a former man in women's sport? After a transition which took place after the start of male puberty?
I can't get my head around it how someone might agree with that. What is wrong with our Western culture? Where did we take the wrong turn?

BTW, people who help a young kid pre-puberty to transition should go to jail. The kid's "consent" to such a procedure notwithstanding. It is the same as the US concept of statutory rape. There the consent of the youngster doesn't absolve the adult from the crime either.

So you are simply misconstruing what I said so that you can give yourself permission to say transwomen are not real women. I already said it's not feasible to push for transwomen being part of women's tennis or any other sport. That does not mean I go around pretending they are not women. They are, in a manner of speaking, but with an important biological difference that cannot be wished away.

 

[Mrs.Delaney]

Also women will fight for equality until it doesn't benefit them. Selective equality.

I'm guessing you're not a woman.

 

[Don Eladio]

So you are simply misconstruing what I said so that you can give yourself permission to say transwomen are not real women. I already said it's not feasible to push for transwomen being part of women's tennis or any other sport. That does not mean I go around pretending they are not women. They are, in a manner of speaking, but with an important biological difference that cannot be wished away.

Yes, trans women are woman. But not real women, only trans women.
But this quarreling about labels doesn't lead to anything.

 

[Doydoor]

Look at it this way the best photographs you'll ever see are ones of groups of naked women. If one of the naked women was ugly it's still a great photograph just not as perfect as it could be. Put a naked man in the photograph though and it completely ruins it.

 

[Madan]

Yes, trans women are woman. But not real women, only trans women.
But this quarreling about labels doesn't lead to anything.

But who's quarreling? You are. I am agreeing with you that transwomen shouldn't participate in women's sports but you're apparently not satisfied with that.

 

[Wasabi.]

Yes, trans women are woman. But not real women, only trans women.
But this quarreling about labels doesn't lead to anything.

You're trying to persist with a separate question where you have an axe to grind clearly. That is where the quarreling is coming from.

 

[wta_zuperfann]

In that case, let's just consolidate the tours and have one singles draw for able bodied persons of all genders. After all, gender doesn't account for all physical inequities, right?

Maybe instead of lecturing people about the law, reflect on what was the original purpose of having a separate male and female draw.

The law in the USA is what it is. Sanctions are imposed for failure to comply. Instead of crying about it, try to change it. That is far more constructive than whining.

 

[wta_zuperfann]

So a male has access to girls' restrooms?
Can become a nun at a convent?
Nadal could play in the women's competition at the USO??

I think you completely misunderstand what discrimination is.
It is certainly no discrimination when a ̶b̶i̶o̶l̶o̶g̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶m̶a̶l̶e̶ {transgender} isn't allowed to compete in women's sport.

Misunderstand? Laughable.

I find it interesting that certain critics refer to judges today who rule in favor of expanding the legal scope of Title IX as "woke". This even though most of these judges are actually Republican.

 

[cricketbat]

The law in the USA is what it is. Sanctions are imposed for failure to comply. Instead of crying about it, try to change it. That is far more constructive than whining.

You keep quoting the law in USA, but swimming international has made the distinction and I dont see any legal challenges to that. Fina is HQ in Switzerland and governs world swimming and diving that will also apply in USA.

So maybe your understanding of USA law is not what you think it is.

 

[wta_zuperfann]

You keep quoting the law in USA, but swimming international has made the distinction and I dont see any legal challenges to that. Fina is HQ in Switzerland and governs world swimming and diving that will also apply in USA.

So maybe your understanding of USA law is not what you think it is.

You are repeating what I wrote. That the law is different here and, whether you like it or not, will continue to be enforced the way it has been done. My understanding of USA law is a lot better than yours since I have a doctorate degree in the subject.

 

[cricketbat]

You are repeating what I wrote. That the law is different here and, whether you like it or not, will continue to be enforced the way it has been done. My understanding of USA is a lot better than yours since I have a doctorate degree in the subject.

Good stuff, so please link us to the USA objection to Fina world ruling in USA, we look forward to the legal challenge and it being reversed your honour,

 

[wta_zuperfann]

By the way, Title IX is now 50 years old today. It was signed on this day in 1972.

 

[wta_zuperfann]

Good stuff, so please link us to the USA objection to Fina world ruling in USA, we look forward to the legal challenge and it being reversed your honour,

It has not been contested in any way so that there is no possible link. But let's keep that open for the future should some legal challenge ever take place ...

 

[disappnted]

It feels inappropriate to you because she is high profile and you know she had a male identity. Trust me, you wouldn't even know someone was a transwoman from appearances in many cases. Most of them sincerely wanted to transition to a female identity. The problem is the male and female bifurcations in sports had always to do with physical strength and not the social construct of gender (aka looking like a woman).

Try me.

 

[disappnted]

Look at it this way the best photographs you'll ever see are ones of groups of naked women. If one of the naked women was ugly it's still a great photograph just not as perfect as it could be. Put a naked man in the photograph though and it completely ruins it.

Are you high?