Tennis Forum banner
1 - 20 of 291 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
We need guidelines about this and the WTA cannot allow any trans players on the WTA. That would be the beginning of the end for the WTA :unsure2:


Although I am empathetic towards trans people and think they deserve the right to live as authentically as they can given their circumstances, trans women competing in women’s sports endangers female athletes and becomes a systemic issue.

The advantages that trans women would have in tennis go way beyond hormone replacement therapy. Trans women would have the advantage of going through male puberty, which means they have a better muscle to fat ratio, lower body fat, denser and stronger bones and joints, which allows for better movement, speed, flexibility and even generating topspin. Then there are also larger lungs that produce more oxygen and thus quicker recovery time and a larger heart that pumps more blood. I honestly believe a trans tennis player in their physical prime would absolutely annihilate the field, win multiple CYGS and would barely lose games in the process.

We need to protect women’s sports, even if it is at the cost of trans people’s feelings :dunno:Participating in a sport should NOT be considered a human right, it’s all to do with fair play.

EDIT: I’m also very against the idea of prepubescent children transitioning and going through dangerous hormone replacement therapy and surgeries… :facepalm:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,712 Posts
I recently saw the documentary "What is a Woman" and while it is clear to me that this is not a balanced documentary (the author is a well-known conservative critic of transgender ideology), it is still deeply striking how shallow and minimal the knowledge of professors, doctors and therapists providing medical care or teaching other students in this area is. I'd probably have to be crazy to send my child on a lifelong path of medicalization, sterilization, and medical complications after the 'considered' assessment and recommendation of these people who, although they boast degrees in gender studies and medicine, know absolutely nothing. In this context, allowing only those who have been medicalized since age 11, 12 to participate in women's sports is such a solution in the style (as we say in our country) of "let the wolf eat and the goat stay whole."
 

·
Art & Futures
Joined
·
26,068 Posts
We need guidelines about this and the WTA cannot allow any trans players on the WTA. That would be the beginning of the end for the WTA :unsure2:


Although I am empathetic towards trans people and think they deserve the right to live as authentically as they can given their circumstances, trans women competing in women’s sports endangers female athletes and becomes a systemic issue.

The advantages that trans women would have in tennis go way beyond hormone replacement therapy. Trans women would have the advantage of going through male puberty, which means they have a better muscle to fat ratio, lower body fat, denser and stronger bones and joints, which allows for better movement, speed, flexibility and even generating topspin. Then there are also larger lungs that produce more oxygen and thus quicker recovery time and a larger heart that pumps more blood. I honestly believe a trans tennis player in their physical prime would absolutely annihilate the field, win multiple CYGS and would barely lose games in the process.

We need to protect women’s sports, even if it is at the cost of trans people’s feelings :dunno:Participating in a sport should NOT be considered a human right, it’s all to do with fair play.

EDIT: I’m also very against the idea of prepubescent children transitioning and going through dangerous hormone replacement therapy and surgeries… :facepalm:
let's just be honest about what you and others who agree with you are saying:

the feelings of non-trans women in sport is more important to you than those of post-puberty transwomen who want to participate in women's sport
 

·
Registered
Team Vika
Joined
·
46,632 Posts
let's just be honest about what you and others who agree with you are saying:

the feelings of non-trans women in sport is more important to you than those of post-puberty transwomen who want to participate in women's sport
But at some point you can't have your cake and eat it too. Trans people of course deserve dignity but there are certain instances where gender studies classes can't just magically inflict their fantasies on everyone else. If a person wants to be trans then go for it but it probably means that being a professional athlete is not the right job for them. It's not the right job for me either !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
let's just be honest about what you and others who agree with you are saying:

the feelings of non-trans women in sport is more important to you than those of post-puberty transwomen who want to participate in women's sport
That is correct, yes. Not because I think biological women are inherently more important or valuable than trans women, but because it is a matter of women’s sports. Women’s sports, or at least the WTA, is designed for biological women and whatever you believe in, biological women and trans women are not the same and will never be the same.

If anything, trans women should feel morally responsible and not want to ruin women’s sports by competing with biological women who are physically inferior in every way.

Imagine if I, a 25 year old, 196cm (6’5 for those of you who use the imperial system) tall male felt like a child despite it not being biologically true and out of respect for my feelings, they allowed me to enter martial arts or wrestling competitions with children under the age of 10. Obviously I would have an unfair advantage and would completely obliterate them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,712 Posts
let's just be honest about what you and others who agree with you are saying:

the feelings of non-trans women in sport is more important to you than those of post-puberty transwomen who want to participate in women's sport
That is correct, same the feeling of cis women in sports is more important to me than the feelings of a cis man who would like to participate with women. 100%
 

·
Registered
Team Vika
Joined
·
46,632 Posts
That is correct, yes. Not because I think biological women are inherently more important or valuable than trans women, but because it is a matter of women’s sports. Women’s sports, or at least the WTA, is designed for biological women and whatever you believe in, biological women and trans women are not the same and will never be the same.

If anything, trans women should feel morally responsible and not want to ruin women’s sports by competing with biological women who are physically inferior in every way.
I think this statement is a bit overdramatic. Some biological women are actually probably physically superior to some, or many, trans women (whatever that inferior vs superior classification even means), but it also ignores the aspects of talent and mental strength and coordination that some people have and some people don't regardless of their gender. Nevertheless, I strongly agree with the first paragraph of this post and the gist of the second one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
I think this statement is a bit overdramatic. Some biological women are actually probably physically superior to some, or many, trans women (whatever that inferior vs superior classification even means), but it also ignores the aspects of talent and mental strength and coordination that some people have and some people don't regardless of their gender .Nevertheless, I strong agree with the first paragraph of this post and the gist of the second one.
Dramatic or not, imagine a top 50 US male college player. I’m not sure how familiar you are with how well they play, but a player of that caliber would barely make the top 200 on the ATP. On the other hand, someone who can serve 140mph+ serves would absolutely double bagel players like Swiatek.
 

·
Registered
Team Vika
Joined
·
46,632 Posts
Dramatic or not, imagine a top 50 US male college player. I’m not sure how familiar you are with how well they play, but a player of that caliber would barely make the top 200 on the ATP. On the other hand, someone who can serve 140mph+ serves would absolutely double bagel players like Swiatek.
Yes but at that point you're just assuming a male tennis player puts on a skirt one day and shows up at a women's tournament and then is allowed to play. It's much more nuanced, so that kind of generalization makes your otherwise very logical arguments seem a bit shaky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: atlasraf and bud887

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
Yes but at that point you're just assuming a male tennis player puts on a skirt one day and shows up at a women's tournament and then is allowed to play. It's much more nuanced, so that kind of generalization makes your otherwise very logical arguments seem a bit shaky.
Well, not really. For instance, swimmers only had to be on hormone replacement therapy for a year before professionally competing against biological women. If you’ve ever been around trans people, you will know that a year on hormones basically does very little. It’s not a magic pill you take and suddenly you have the entire hormonal composition of a woman. It takes YEARS and that’s even disregarding the obvious physical advantages of someone who has gone through male puberty.
 

·
Registered
Team Vika
Joined
·
46,632 Posts
Well, not really. For instance, swimmers only had to be on hormone replacement therapy for a year before professionally competing against biological women. If you’ve ever been around trans people, you will know that a year on hormones basically does very little. It’s not a magic pill you take and suddenly you have the entire hormonal composition of a woman. It takes YEARS and that’s even disregarding the obvious physical advantages of someone who has gone through male puberty.
Yes, and many trans people do take years before entering the sport. I agree with your arguments but just not this notion that trans people are "physically superior in every way."

By the way, at least one example of a trans female tennis player exists in case people aren't aware of it. Renée RICHARDS was a very gifted male athlete and tennis player before getting gender reassignment surgery and ultimately being allowed to compete in women's sports events after an extremely controversial court ruling. She was not very successful on the women's tour, but still stated later in her life that previously being a male gave her significant physical advantages, saying "I've reconsidered my opinion."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Madan

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
Yes, and many trans people do take years before entering the sport. I agree with your arguments but just not this notion that trans people are "physically superior in every way."

By the way, at least one example of a trans female tennis player exists in case people aren't aware of it. Renée RICHARDS was a very gifted male athlete and tennis player before getting gender reassignment surgery and ultimately being allowed to compete in women's sports events after an extremely controversial court ruling. She was not very successful on the women's tour, but still stated later in her life that previously being a male gave her significant physical advantages, saying "I've reconsidered my opinion."
I understand your point, but I’m not comparing the average man to an professional female athlete. I’m comparing someone who was already a male athlete post puberty and then transitioned into a trans woman. An athletically gifted trans woman will always be superior to almost any biological woman.

Also, I’m not sure the Renee Richards example works very well. When she competed in the ATP, she never made it past the 2nd round of a Slam. Then, she recorded her best ever Slam performance as a trans woman in 1979, at the age of 45…Ovviously if she hadn’t been 45 and missed like 17 years of professional tennis, she likely would have done way better.

It was also a different time when Billie Jean King could beat someone like Bobby Rigs and Navratilova could have a semi-competitive match against Jimmy Connors. Times have changed now and tennis isn’t just about skill but about power, speed and athleticism just as much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Do we have any trans people on this forum? It would be good to hear their opinion.

From my point of view, it is very likely that if it is accepted that trans women are allowed to play in the WTA the top 20 - 50 will be primarily trans, when it becomes completely normalised in 2 to 5 decades.

Not sure how people would feel about trans women and women playing together and against each other yet being ranked on separate tables and having sperate records attributed to them.

Another way would be to have a handicap system that acknowledges peoples skill/physical advantages, though that is a lot easier to implement in golf, swimming or running than it is in tennis.
 

·
Registered
Team Vika
Joined
·
46,632 Posts
I understand your point, but I’m not comparing the average man to an professional female athlete. I’m comparing someone who was already a male athlete post puberty and then transitioned into a trans woman. An athletically gifted trans woman will always be superior to almost any biological woman.

Also, I’m not sure the Renee Richards example works very well. When she competed in the ATP, she never made it past the 2nd round of a Slam. Then, she recorded her best ever Slam performance as a trans woman in 1979, at the age of 45…Ovviously if she hadn’t been 45 and missed like 17 years of professional tennis, she likely would have done way better.

It was also a different time when Billie Jean King could beat someone like Bobby Rigs and Navratilova could have a semi-competitive match against Jimmy Connors. Times have changed now and tennis isn’t just about skill but about power, speed and athleticism just as much.
Well okay but then make your comparison clear the first time because it wasn't. And there are many examples that don't fit the conditions you're assuming.

I didn't know Renée RICHARDS was that old when she competed, so fair point. Also I just read her page a bit more and she apparently got to the top 20 rankings and beat several of the best players of that era so she was more successful than I had realized (even if things were quite different back then). She also was inducted into the gay and lesbian sports hall of fame, which doesn't really make any sense to me :unsure2:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Perun and Peverell

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,606 Posts
Do we have any trans people on this forum? It would be good to hear their opinion.

From my point of view, it is very likely that if it is accepted that trans women are allowed to play in the WTA the top 20 - 50 will be primarily trans, when it becomes completely normalised in 2 to 5 decades.

Not sure how people would feel about trans women and women playing together and against each other yet being ranked on separate tables and having sperate records attributed to them.

Another way would be to have a handicap system that acknowledges peoples skill/physical advantages, though that is a lot easier to implement in golf, swimming or running than it is in tennis.
I don’t think trans women competing against biological women will be normalized in the WTA. Women’s tennis would suffer immensely both in terms of competition and fans. Biological women simply wouldn’t want to play tennis anymore as they would know they would have no chance against trans players and would focus their talents elsewhere, whereas female fans would also likely stop following as a result.

It would be better if trans players had their own separate tour, like wheelchair tennis, where they could be paid according to the interest they bring to the sport and where they could compete against athletes in a similar situation to them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,132 Posts
For me, it's a tough call. I want all women, both cis and trans, to have opportunities to compete and you don't want someone have to make this kind of decision before puberty just to be eligible. However, the reason women's sports even exist is because of physical disadvantages versus men. My preference would be to keep the rules the same as they are for Olympic eligibility. Renee Richards only reach a carrer high rank of 20 after turning pro in 1977, so transgender women could have played in the WTA for at least 40 years and still aren't occupying all the top spots in the rankings, so I think a lot of this is just trying to create a problem that doesn't exist in tennis.
 
1 - 20 of 291 Posts
Top