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Hey guys,

It's time to say thanks for everyone involved in our game - playing, organizing, bitching! It was a successfull season with around 32 players all year long even with no real tennis for most of 2020. We saw many newcomers and comebacks and I hope to see everyone back for 2021 season.


Here are some topics we need to discuss for the next season. Feel free to add suggestions. If you want to change anything, tell us WHY? and HOW? so we can discuss it further.



Changes from 2019/20:

- Non senders: fake scores indicated by a ^ (like 6-2 6-0^) instead of a 6-0 6-0 - no complaints

- Fed Cup: we agreed with the new format for 2021 and it worked fine - no complaints

- Grand Slam seedings: we changed from 8 to 16 to avoid top 10 clashes in the first round. It worked fine and we had more than 32 players in all GS - no complaints.

- Determining tie scores: we changed from: a) surface preference, 2) higher ranked player to a) less total points b) surface preference, c) higher ranked player. This question was raised here Nottingham and 's-Hertogenbosch 2020 | Draws &amp...

yeah it's good: if you manage to get a tie with less points, you deserve to win - even if it's 0.5 points cause you may use fractional points
no it's bad: bonus points earned with titles are disadvantageous in such situations.

- Rankings: race rankings counted 16 tournaments (like WTA) - now it's 22 with mandatory tournaments included (4 slams + 4 premier mandatory). So, ranking and race ranking are the same after Moscow/Lux.

yeah it's good: you must be consistent on Grand Slam and mandatory tournaments.
no it's bad: it should count more than 22 tournaments played.



Topics for 2021:

- 4th surface:
every year it is discussed. Adding a new surface means new weeks with mandatory new points = more WO matches. On the other side, we have too many Hard tournaments. The obvious choice would be Indoors Hard (St.Pete/Budapest and Linz/Moscow/Luxembourg/WTA Finals/Zhuhai/Ostrava?). Last year a Grass = Indoors option was voted.


- Cap of points (115) and experience points: Every year it is discussed... 😅 too much, too many?


If you win an event in 2020, you will receive additional points on to your points to send - valid for 52 weeks.

Grand Slam = 7
Premier Mandatory/Premier 5/YEC = 5
Premier 600/700/Zhuhai = 3
International = 2

$125K = 1

- Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments: we've been working with 4 seeds for 16-draw and 8 seeds for 32-draw.
- Wild Cards: a lot of comebacks this year - it would be fair for veterans and new players doing well. We need to set a limit for one player? Juniors?

We may also update tournament limitation guidelines:


  • Grand Slams - unlimited main draw spots (16 seeds)
  • Premier Mandatory - 32 main draw (27 direct entry; 4 qualifiers; 1 wild card) (8 seeds)
  • Premier 5 - 32 main draw (27 direct entry; 4 qualifiers; 1 wild card) (8 seeds)
  • Premier - 32 or 16 main draw (27 direct entry; 4 qualifiers; 1 wild card) (8 seeds) or (13 direct entry; 2 qualifiers; 1 wild card) (4 seeds)
  • International - 16 main draw (13 direct entry; 2 qualifiers; 1 wild card) (4 seeds)
  • ITF 125k - 16 main draw (12 direct entry; 4 qualifiers) (cannot be in top 10 at time of entry) (4 seeds)
  • WTA Championships - 8 singles; 8 doubles teams
  • Zhuhai - 8 singles; 6 doubles teams
  • Olympics Singles - 32 main draw (Top 4 from each country qualify) (8 seeds)
  • Olympics Doubles - 16 main draw teams (Top 2 from each country in doubles qualify) (4 seeds)


- Finals: keep it or change it?
Shenzhen - 8 singles + 8 doubles - like wta
Zhuhai - 8 singles + 6 doubles - wta has 12 players for singles. We barely had 6 doubles teams for it this year 🙊


- Late Entries: a new or returning player should be added to the draw ASAP to help engagement - but I guess we need a rule to avoid the US Open drama. So we may change it:

a Late Entry should only be added to the draw (IF) they commit/sign up before/until the Doubles Deadline is due and therefore we all have the same 48 hours to send our points. All players involved should be informed"



- Lucky Losers: yes or no?
- Qualifying or first round? - some tournaments had 17/18 players so we add a first round/qualifying round. It always gives R1 points (30).

Well, these topics are connected. I've been calling it qualifying - but with no lucky losers so it has been working like a first round 🙊

yeah it's good: more opportunities for low-ranked players.
no it's bad: some players send their points based on first round opponent - it would increase luck factor



- Juniors: In the past, junior players could enter few senior tournaments per year - with only 80 points to send. Our juniors tour is back and surviving with around 16 players.
How do you feel about Juniors on Pro Tour? No? Yes? Only for small tournaments and with WC? Big and small tournaments with WC?


- Age limit: I feel it's just a bitching topic so feel free and keep in mind veterans are a big and important part of this game and they shouldn't be forced out.


- 2021 Calendar: shall we wait the real calendar or repeat 2020 schedule? For me it is our biggest issue for 2021 😭 It may have consequences on our ranking system.


- 125k events: yes or no? Important for low-ranked players but it looks like no one cares - boring tournaments. Also, extra work for managers especially on slams.




Discuss 🎃 🎃
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Reserved 😇
 

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- Finals:
Shenzhen - 8 singles + 8 doubles - keep
Zhuhai - 8 singles + 6 doubles - keep, if we need more people it just means more advertising in that front!

- Age limit: I think they should stay, it definitely adds to the "fantasy" part of fantasy league :LOL:

- 125k events: Yes! As a perennial low-rank (Singles) player I would appreciate the extra playing time!

-------

I have to think more about the other topics to offer an opinion but I just wanted to say if you would like any help in the administration front (maybe for the 125k events if more managers is an issue), I would love to learn and help :D
 

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Agree that the changes to 2020 were all good! I would add my two cents for the following:

- 4th surface: I understand the sentiment but it's too much to keep track of so I may suggest grass points for indoor or something easy to keep three surfaces but spread out tournaments?
- Cap of points (115) and experience points: system is fine to me.
- Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments: seeding has been fine to me!
- Wild Cards: love wildcards!
- Finals: keep it or change it? keep it.
- Late Entries: i think we can add LE as long as players are notified and players still have the opportunity to change pts if they already sent before deadline
- Lucky Losers: no?
- Qualifying or first round? -i personally just liked the 1st round so players can get more points.
- Juniors: didn't love juniors playing because it was so random and haphazard
- Age limit: this is silly- it's a game and should be inclusive of anyone
- 2021 Calendar: keep 2020 calendar
- 125k events: yes but hope to have more engagement from folks
 

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Also agree that the changes to 2020 were all good!

My thoughts
  • 4th surface: Liked the idea but i think too complicated to inact.
  • Cap of points (115) and experience points: System is fine. Slams were won on way less.
  • Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments: Also no problem for me.
  • Wild Cards: Yes for returning players (maximum 6) new players (maximum 3) and if a player retires their player and comebacks with a new player (maximum 10).
  • Finals: Keep both Shenzhen and Zhuhai as they are.
  • Late Entries: Yes with notice to players who it affects but also responsibility on players to check when the final deadline is which could be doubles entry? or 24hrs before points deadline?
  • Lucky Losers: Love the idea (but see below).
  • Qualifying or first round? - Class it as first round - unless we get enough players to make a proper qualifying draw i.e. like 8 extra for a 16 player draw.
  • Juniors: 1 or 2 WC(s) for an International on the main tour (this would be home tournament or if player doesn't have a home tournament, any International of the players choice) - maximum points to send 85.
  • Age limit: Not required. WTA/ATP has 39yos.
  • 2021 Calendar: Modify 2020 calendar including Olympics - while i'd like to follow WTA Tour i think its too much work for rankings etc.
  • 125k events: I'd get rid - interest is very lacking in the threads

My extra thoughts:
  • Fed Cup: back to individual nations - i didn't like the mixing of nations last year
  • Computer players for Olympics: CP points should be 100 (it's unfair if doubles player has earned 115 points but doesn't have another player from their nation so only have to work with 97.5)
  • Mixed Doubles: Maybe change the points, let's experiment with it - maybe 125 points - with match tiebreaker. Mixed Doubles could be the place to experiment with new points or new scoring etc.
 

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- Non senders: keep
- Fed Cup: keep
- Grand Slam seedings: keep and also add 16 seeds to Premier Mandatories
- Determining tie scores: keep
- Rankings: keep
- 4th surface: I like the idea of allowing people to send grass points for indoor hard tournaments, but definitely don't make indoor hard its own surface
- Cap of points (115) and experience points: keep, possibly award points for making the finals of a tournament too?
- Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments: keep
- Wild Cards: good idea to implement wild cards
- Finals: keep WTA Finals, change Zhuhai to 12 players like the WTA
- Late Entries: good idea for the new rule you suggested
- Lucky Losers: yes
- Qualifying or first round? I'm not sure. I like the idea of it being qualifying and having lucky losers but I don't think they should get less points
- Juniors: I think whoever wins the tournament from the week before on the junior tour, should get a wildcard into the next WTA International event
- Age limit: don't force them out
- 2021 Calendar: repeat 2020
- 125k events: yes
 

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Discussion Starter #7
- 4th surface: as the spreadsheet person, it wouldn't be difficult to transfer points won on hard for Indoor tournaments.
And I hate the idea of sending grass points for Indoor tournaments 😇
 

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So... if we brought forward our 2020 calendar and added the Olympics; 2021 would look like this:

Week 1 Brisbane (Premier); Auckland (International); Shenzhen (International)
Week 2 Adelaide (Premier); Hobart (International)
Week 3 Australian Open (Grand Slam)
Week 4 Australian Open (Grand Slam); Taipei City (125)

Week 5 Billie Jean King Cup - Qualification
Week 6 St. Petersburg (Premier); Hua Hin (International)
Week 7 Doha (Premier); Budapest (International)
Week 8 Dubai (Premier 5); Acapulco (International)
Week 9 Lyon (International); Monterrey (International)
Week 10 Indian Wells (Premier Mandatory)
Week 11 Indian Wells (Premier Mandatory); Guadalajara (125)
Week 12 Miami (Premier Mandatory)
Week 13 Miami (Premier Mandatory); Newport Beach (125)

Week 14 Charleston (Premier); Bogota (International)
Week 15 Billie Jean King Cup - Finals
Week 16 Stuttgart (Premier); Istanbul (International)
Week 17 Prague (International); Karlsruhe (125)
Week 18 Madrid (Premier Mandatory)
Week 19 Rome (Premier 5)
Week 20 Strasbourg (International); Rabat (International)
Week 21 Roland Garros (Grand Slam)
Week 22 Roland Garros (Grand Slam); Bol (125)

Week 23 Nottingham (International); ’s-Hertogenbosch (International)
Week 24 Berlin (Premier); Birmingham (International)
Week 25 Eastbourne (Premier); Bad Homburg (International)
Week 26 Wimbledon (Grand Slam)
Week 27 Wimbledon (Grand Slam); Bastad (125)

Week 28 Bucharest (International); Lausanne (International)
Week 29 Jurmala (International); Palermo (International)
Week 30 Tokyo (Olympics)
Week 31 Tokyo (Olympics)

Week 32 San Jose (Premier); Washington DC (International)
Week 33 Toronto (Premier 5)
Week 34 Cincinnati (Premier 5)
Week 35 Lexington (International); Guangzhou (International)
Week 36 US Open (Grand Slam)
Week 37 US Open (Grand Slam); Houston (125)

Week 38 Zhengzhou (Premier); Hiroshima (International)
Week 39 Tokyo (Premier); Tianjin (International)
Week 40 Wuhan (Premier 5)
Week 41 Beijing (Premier Mandatory)
Week 42 Hong Kong (International); Linz (International)
Week 43 Moscow (Premier); Luxembourg (International)

ZHUHAI-Finals
SHENZHEN-Finals


*Nanchang and Seoul to add to calendar somewhere

Maybe we could add a week after Beijing with Nanchang and Seoul?
 

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I don't like a fourth surface as it simply makes the tour unnecessary complicated. We have already more than enough weeks where points have to be changed. I count 13 weeks of points change in that calendary above. That's why I don't like the idea of lucky losers as it would result in a risk of at least 13 times facing a random player.

In 2020 Sannie Carlson and Larissa Ovechkina won hard court Grand Slam titles with their 102 points so anything is possible with a good strategy. And the more hard court tournaments there are, the more opportunities for newbies/clay courters to win experience points on that surface.

I like the exclusivity of grass surface and Wimbledon. I think however that it would be nice to have Olympics on grass too.

Late entries only outside Grand Slams and Premier Mandatory tournaments. The rules for late entries have to be clearly set in my eyes.

I am with Bianka here, that juniors are making draws random and haphazard. I suggest rewarding only the recent junior GS champ with a WC into next Grand Slam though (like junior AO champ 2021 would get a WC for Roland Garros).

I prefer the Fed Cup system of the past seasons to the one of 2020.

I am fine with everything else.

Personal suggestion:

I think top 10 doubles players shouldn't be allowed to play 125k events in doubles in order to avoid situations like 2020.
 

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Junior wildcard suggestion

If we allowed it - the rule would be they could only play an international at home (i.e. player from China gets a WC to Tianjin) or an international of their choice if they don’t have a home international (my player is from Argentina so I’d probably request Bogotá).

I would volunteer to keep track of it so that no one players more than allowed event (I’d say 1 or 2 wildcards no more) and the junior player would have to request the wild card into the tournament of their choice. Only one junior at an event if two request same event higher ranked or local player receives the wildcard.

I think it would be a nice way to tie in juniors. I appreciate those that don’t play juniors don’t see the point but there is a few newer players in juniors so it could help engagement and as it’s not allowed at big events just the internationals or even just 125s if we have them and they have limited points to use it wouldn’t really have to much affect on day the Race or the Ranking but could fill up the draws. 😊
 

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- 4th surface:

I don't want to have the runners of this game to have even more work, so I could live without a fourth surface. If players want to have one, I could think of the combination of grass/indoors.


- Cap of points (115) and experience points: Every year it is discussed... 😅 too much, too many?

I think the cap is good especially in regard to the past, where people could have up to 130 points on a surface; that was difficult to beat them.


- Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments:

Sounds good to me.

- Wild Cards:

I would like to have a rule for Wildcards for veterans. I would like to keep the junior tour and seperated from the main tour and therefore have no juniors in any draws.

- Finals: keep it or change it?

I like the system, especially the RR format.

- Late Entries:

a Late Entry should only be added to the draw (IF) they commit/sign up before/until the Doubles Deadline is due and therefore we all have the same 48 hours to send our points. All players involved should be informed"

I like the suggested idea above, but we need to be strict.

- Lucky Losers: yes or no?

I'm not sure. Regarding strategies, I am against LL.

- Qualifying or first round? - some tournaments had 17/18 players so we add a first round/qualifying round. It always gives R1 points (30).

I would like to avoid Qualfying and keep the current system.


- Juniors:

I would like to keep the junior tour and seperated from the main tour and therefore have no juniors in any draws.

- Age limit:

As I said before, I don't see the problem and if I will be forced to retire my player just because of an age rule, I won't continue to play FWTT.

- 2021 Calendar: shall we wait the real calendar or repeat 2020 schedule? For me it is our biggest issue for 2021 😭 It may have consequences on our ranking system.

I would keep our schedule from this season to make everyones life easier.


- 125k events:

Yes, keep them.
 

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Junior wildcard suggestion

If we allowed it - the rule would be they could only play an international at home (i.e. player from China gets a WC to Tianjin) or an international of their choice if they don’t have a home international (my player is from Argentina so I’d probably request Bogotá).

I would volunteer to keep track of it so that no one players more than allowed event (I’d say 1 or 2 wildcards no more) and the junior player would have to request the wild card into the tournament of their choice. Only one junior at an event if two request same event higher ranked or local player receives the wildcard.

I think it would be a nice way to tie in juniors. I appreciate those that don’t play juniors don’t see the point but there is a few newer players in juniors so it could help engagement and as it’s not allowed at big events just the internationals or even just 125s if we have them and they have limited points to use it wouldn’t really have to much affect on day the Race or the Ranking but could fill up the draws. 😊
This idea I like yes. No WC for big tournaments and maybe if agreed your junior and normal player cannot play same tournament so that for example Carlson against Svindal doesn't happen as player can choose result
 

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So... if we brought forward our 2020 calendar and added the Olympics; 2021 would look like this:

Week 1 Brisbane (Premier); Auckland (International); Shenzhen (International)
Week 2 Adelaide (Premier); Hobart (International)
Week 3 Australian Open (Grand Slam)
Week 4 Australian Open (Grand Slam); Taipei City (125)

Week 5 Billie Jean King Cup - Qualification
Week 6 St. Petersburg (Premier); Hua Hin (International)
Week 7 Doha (Premier); Budapest (International)
Week 8 Dubai (Premier 5); Acapulco (International)
Week 9 Lyon (International); Monterrey (International)
Week 10 Indian Wells (Premier Mandatory)
Week 11 Indian Wells (Premier Mandatory); Guadalajara (125)
Week 12 Miami (Premier Mandatory)
Week 13 Miami (Premier Mandatory); Newport Beach (125)

Week 14 Charleston (Premier); Bogota (International)
Week 15 Billie Jean King Cup - Finals
Week 16 Stuttgart (Premier); Istanbul (International)
Week 17 Prague (International); Karlsruhe (125)
Week 18 Madrid (Premier Mandatory)
Week 19 Rome (Premier 5)
Week 20 Strasbourg (International); Rabat (International)
Week 21 Roland Garros (Grand Slam)
Week 22 Roland Garros (Grand Slam); Bol (125)

Week 23 Nottingham (International); ’s-Hertogenbosch (International)
Week 24 Berlin (Premier); Birmingham (International)
Week 25 Eastbourne (Premier); Bad Homburg (International)
Week 26 Wimbledon (Grand Slam)
Week 27 Wimbledon (Grand Slam); Bastad (125)

Week 28 Bucharest (International); Lausanne (International)
Week 29 Jurmala (International); Palermo (International)
Week 30 Tokyo (Olympics)
Week 31 Tokyo (Olympics)

Week 32 San Jose (Premier); Washington DC (International)
Week 33 Toronto (Premier 5)
Week 34 Cincinnati (Premier 5)
Week 35 Lexington (International); Guangzhou (International)
Week 36 US Open (Grand Slam)
Week 37 US Open (Grand Slam); Houston (125)

Week 38 Zhengzhou (Premier); Hiroshima (International)
Week 39 Tokyo (Premier); Tianjin (International)
Week 40 Wuhan (Premier 5)
Week 41 Beijing (Premier Mandatory)
Week 42 Hong Kong (International); Linz (International)
Week 43 Moscow (Premier); Luxembourg (International)

ZHUHAI-Finals
SHENZHEN-Finals


*Nanchang and Seoul to add to calendar somewhere

Maybe we could add a week after Beijing with Nanchang and Seoul?
This calendar is fine. Add another week after Beijing yes maybe help race to finals be more exciting
 

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First thanks again to all organisers and players of this game, I've tried to answer everything I think with my take and have a wacky suggestion


- 4th surface: I think was my idea last year but not necessary to me now


- Cap of points (115): it's okay I won Grand Slam with 102.
- Seeding Premier Tournaments and International Tournaments: Ok


- Wild Cards: who decides who gets?


- Finals: is Zhuhai still a thing on WTA from 2021?


- Late Entries: No problem to me.


- Lucky Losers: Could be fun.


- Qualifying or first round? Whatever easiest for managers.


- Juniors: One small event can't hurt for junior wildcard


- Age limit: Its only a game who care.


- 2021 Calendar: Again whatever is easier to manage.


- 125k events: don't really mind let's vote

Fun/Wacky idea? Random injury generator. So in 16 player draw give each place in draw a number ( first round who be 1-16, second round 17-24, qf 25-28 etc) before the draw is made organiser puts numbers in random generator and which ever number comes out that place in draw the player retires due to injury, so it could be any round any match decided by this. I guess many people will hate this idea, but it is a game, and could be a fun twist, maybe only try it out at lower events first.
 

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Junior wildcard suggestion

If we allowed it - the rule would be they could only play an international at home (i.e. player from China gets a WC to Tianjin) or an international of their choice if they don’t have a home international (my player is from Argentina so I’d probably request Bogotá).

I would volunteer to keep track of it so that no one players more than allowed event (I’d say 1 or 2 wildcards no more) and the junior player would have to request the wild card into the tournament of their choice. Only one junior at an event if two request same event higher ranked or local player receives the wildcard.

I think it would be a nice way to tie in juniors. I appreciate those that don’t play juniors don’t see the point but there is a few newer players in juniors so it could help engagement and as it’s not allowed at big events just the internationals or even just 125s if we have them and they have limited points to use it wouldn’t really have to much affect on day the Race or the Ranking but could fill up the draws. 😊
Does that mean that our pro player and junior player could play the same tournaments?
Also, what is the reason for handicaping juniors so much with 80 pts? Give them at least the base 100 imho
 

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Changes from 2019/20:

- Determining tie scores: I like it as it is now, if you have less points and are still tied in a set, you deserve the win

- Rankings:
race rankings counted 16 tournaments (like WTA) - now it's 22 with mandatory tournaments included (4 slams + 4 premier mandatory). So, ranking and race ranking are the same after Moscow/Lux.


race rankings should reflect the real rankings, so if we use 22 tournaments for the rankings, same should be done for the race, and the race becomes the rankings before the Year End finals.


Topics for 2021:

- 4th surface:
I don't find it necesary, however, tying it wit the second point below, I think more points should be awarded to players for doing well on grass, especially at Wimbledon. Reinga has made the F this year and reaps no rewards from doing that (in terms of points to send)


- Cap of points (115) and experience points: What I would like to try and give GS finalists (maybe even Premier Mandatory finalists) some points as well, a lot of our finalists are "random" in terms of not being seeded and they made it to a final, which doesn't make their lives any easier onwards.


- Wild Cards:
I have nothing against WCs but everything needs to be TRANSPARENT, a thing this game hugely lacks. I like the idea of juniors getting WCs for MMs and 125ks



- Finals: Zhuhai doubles does not award points to the rankings for the same cause, since it's usually full of random teams that for some reason care to travel to try and get in such a tournament, something to keep in mind.


- Late Entries: I'd say no for the current week, everyone who wants to join the tour can wait a week.
  • Lucky Losers: If no Qualifying, no LLs
  • Qualifying or first round?
- First round cuz bigger points




- Juniors: Give juniors 100 pts for the pro tour (or at least 95)... We need to motivate people to try and compete on the junior tour as well, but not everyone should be given a Junior WC, for example, needs to play at least 6 months on the tour, needs to be top 10, needs to be No1 in their country etc etc

- Age limit: 🙈


- 2021 Calendar: I like our calendar


- 125k events:
yes, so juniors can play there as they really don't have ITFs here



I will add a few things later on, I'm consulting with some people on whether or not I should say something 🙈
 

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This idea I like yes. No WC for big tournaments and maybe if agreed your junior and normal player cannot play same tournament so that for example Carlson against Svindal doesn't happen as player can choose result
Does that mean that our pro player and junior player could play the same tournaments?
Also, what is the reason for handicaping juniors so much with 80 pts? Give them at least the base 100 imho
Sorry - yes - your senior player and junior player would not be able to play the same tournament - for the very reason quoted in @testoo post.

And they would need to have less points than the base (100) as this is technically a second player, so i would suggest 80 to 85 points.
 

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I don't like a fourth surface as it simply makes the tour unnecessary complicated. We have already more than enough weeks where points have to be changed. I count 13 weeks of points change in that calendary above. That's why I don't like the idea of lucky losers as it would result in a risk of at least 13 times facing a random player.

In 2020 Sannie Carlson and Larissa Ovechkina won hard court Grand Slam titles with their 102 points so anything is possible with a good strategy. And the more hard court tournaments there are, the more opportunities for newbies/clay courters to win experience points on that surface.

I like the exclusivity of grass surface and Wimbledon. I think however that it would be nice to have Olympics on grass too.

Late entries only outside Grand Slams and Premier Mandatory tournaments. The rules for late entries have to be clearly set in my eyes.

I am with Bianka here, that juniors are making draws random and haphazard. I suggest rewarding only the recent junior GS champ with a WC into next Grand Slam though (like junior AO champ 2021 would get a WC for Roland Garros).

I prefer the Fed Cup system of the past seasons to the one of 2020.

I am fine with everything else.

Personal suggestion:

I think top 10 doubles players shouldn't be allowed to play 125k events in doubles in order to avoid situations like 2020.
Sienna won the French with 102 points too! It just shows that the amount of points helps, but it's the strategy that makes or breaks a tournament.
 
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