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Discussion Starter #1
has only defeated one Top 10 player on clay.

rank 7 Mauresmo d. Williams 6:7(6) 6:0 3:0 ret. [2003 Warsaw]
rank 6 Myskina d. Williams 6:3 6:4 [2004 Roland Garros]
rank 1 Davenport d. Williams 1:6 6:3 6:4 [2005 Amelia Island]
rank 10 Kuznetsova d. Williams 6:4 6:2 [2006 Warsaw]
rank 9 Jankovic d. Williams 3:6 6:3 7:6(5) [2007 Charleston]
rank 5 Kuznetsova d. Williams 3:6 6:3 6:4 [2007 Warsaw]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 6:4 4:6 6:1[2007 Roland Garros]
rank 4 Jankovic d. Williams 5:7 6:2 6:3 [2008 Rome]

rank 12 Williams d. Schnyder 7:6(2) 3:6 6:1 [2006 Rome]
rank 13 Williams d. Schnyder 4:6 6:3 6:2 [2006 Roland Garros]

She's 2/10 her only two wins coming against the same person, Schnyder, who is known all over the tennis world for being Venus' lap dog. While Venus did have some good clay results in 2000-2001, she was aided on clay due to the aura and sheer fear of her it helps that these years are widely considered to be her peak years.

Oh, her 2004 clay court run?

Charleston.
92 REEVES 4-6 6-4 6-3
85 MIKAELIAN 6-4 6-1
11 ZVONAREVA 6-3 6-4
53 KOSTANIC, JELENA 6-4 6-1
24 MARTINEZ 2-6 6-2 6-1

Lost a set to an American nobody.
Kostanic was in the SFs of a Tier I, shows how weak it was that year.
Way past her peak Martinez in the final, didn't Martinez retire that next year?
Not one Top 10 player faced. This draw is more Tier II than Tier I.

Warsaw.
23 ZULUAGA, FABIOLA COL 4-6 6-2 6-0
24 MALEEVA, MAGDALENA BUL 6-1 6-0
11 ZVONAREVA, VERA RUS 6-3 6-2
14 KUZNETSOVA, SVETLANA RUS 6-1 6-4

Still didn't face one Top 10 player. At least this actually WAS a Tier II.

Berlin.
26 DANIILIDOU 7-5 6-3
21 SMASHNOVA6-3 6-1
17 SUAREZ 7-6(5) 5-7 6-2
29 SPREM 2-6 6-3 6-4
3 MAURESMO, AMELIE FRA W/O

Not one even one Top 15 player faced, got the final and defaulted when it was time to face real competition.

Venus for Roland Garros. :hearts:
 

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Since 2002...

Venus Williams has won Wimbledon 3x.

:worship:
 
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gimme some info here...who is mikaelian??????


what about 2006??? Rome and RG??
 

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It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).

I hope she has a good showing at RG this year. If Kuzzy or Jankovic dont win it, I sure hope it's Venus.
 
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I knew it! I never ever understood why people always said Venus' was underrated on clay and that she was a great claycourter.
 

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She's nowhere near as good on clay as she is on any other surface. Still, she's not terrible. There's the (lack of) form of Safina, Jankovic, Mauresmo and somewhat Ivanovic, and Sharapova and Serena still under an injury cloud. Add Zvonareva and Azarenka to the mix and this tournament is wide open. Venus could surprise at Roland Garros. She'll need a good draw though, with no really capable clay courters (Suarez Navarro, Medina Garrigues, Mauresmo, Pennetta etc) in her quarter. If she can make the QF, anything is possible beyond there.

The thing I think she has going for her though, is that she hasn't had a 12 months leading up to the clay season as impressive as this since 2002, when she reached the final.
 

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Rankings don't always reflect the quality of opposition, especially on a specialised surface like clay which is only in action 2/3 months a year.

Martinez, however much past her prime, was ALWAYS dangerous on clay. She had won the tourney twice before. Her game was perfect for the surface, alot more suited to clay than Venus is. The next year, Conchi pushed Henin all the way at RG, where Henin won the title.

We all know how Kuznetsova ended up that year with a USO trophy. She too has a fantastic game for clay and always did well in Warsaw.

Suarez made the RG semis later that claycourt season, and again, a more suitable claycourt game than Venus.

So no, she didn't beat a top 10 player there but Suarez & Kuznetsova soon ended up in the top 10 just months later.




In the women's game, surfaces are not nearly as significant as the men's. It's no secret that Venus' worst surface is clay and that she is very beatable on it. But if she makes her way to the SF's/F's of RG, there are not too many players who she will lose to.

I think you have to give everyone a chance at this year's RG. Venus is by no means a favourite, but with her record, always deserves a chance at it. She can win on clay if she keeps her error count low.
 

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It does not matter. What's admirable is that compared to all the other slams, she participates in the clay warm up tourneys because she WANTS to win RG. She does not participate much in the other warmups. Her dedication towards this goal is respectable. We know it's not because she wants the points, if it was, she'd play Eastbourne every year (and probably win that tourney every year as well!).
A nice post (as usual), but I have a different explanation: Venus doesn't play Eastbourne or other as you call them 'warm up tournaments' on grass precisely because her goal is to win Wimbledon. If she did, she would face at least 10 matches in a row, with the most difficult ones at the very end. So this is a cool calculation, not not caring about say Eastbourne.

On the other hand, she has no such expectations on clay at Roland Garros. Thus she can afford playing a number of clay tournaments.
 

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thanks dave (never thought i'd say that :p)



but i don't think she's underrated...i think people perceive her in the right way when it comes to clay...i think her lack of technique especially on the fh (since anything high to that side) is usually her downfall on clay...its why she will get particularly more loses on the surface even when you think she should be winning...it's why imo, i think maria and venus both suck on clay, but despite their deficiencies i wouldn't be surprised if maria got one title before venus...even though i think of the two venus SHOULD be better...however maria doesn't seem to let that bother her, since she refuses to slide, refuses to give more margin for error and basically plays hardcourt tennis but gets through based on the fact that she believes she should be winning despite of it...

but that's my two cents :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Rankings don't always reflect the quality of opposition, especially on a specialised surface like clay which is only in action 2/3 months a year.

Martinez, however much past her prime, was ALWAYS dangerous on clay. She had won the tourney twice before. Her game was perfect for the surface, alot more suited to clay than Venus is. The next year, Conchi pushed Henin all the way at RG, where Henin won the title.

We all know how Kuznetsova ended up that year with a USO trophy. She too has a fantastic game for clay and always did well in Warsaw.

Suarez made the RG semis later that claycourt season, and again, a more suitable claycourt game than Venus.

So no, she didn't beat a top 10 player there but Suarez & Kuznetsova soon ended up in the top 10 just months later.




In the women's game, surfaces are not nearly as significant as the men's. It's no secret that Venus' worst surface is clay and that she is very beatable on it. But if she makes her way to the SF's/F's of RG, there are not too many players who she will lose to.

I think you have to give everyone a chance at this year's RG. Venus is by no means a favourite, but with her record, always deserves a chance at it. She can win on clay if she keeps her error count low.
That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.
 

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That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.
:sobbing: plz don't say that...


it'd be interesting to see if AnnaK has any similar stats so that we can see a comparison between venus, serena, ana, jj, and other contenders...
 

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That goes without saying for everyone that is a contender. If Serena is making low errors, she's going to win anywhere. If Ivanovic is making low errors, she will be a force on clay. If Kuznetsova is making low errors, she can definitely scalp someone. If Dementieva, If Safina...

The numbers don't lie she's only won twice out of ten tries against opponents at the highest level in seven years and that was against the same person. You can't sit here and tell me that isn't weak for a player that her fans claim to be unfairly underrated on the surface. Their main argument is that she has won every major clay court event except RG, but these wins have all been 5 or more years ago.

At some point you have to realize she is a different player. Every time a Serena, Mauresmo, or any other player who had their best years a while ago mention those years a poster is quick to say they are a different player now. Venus is not that same player any more and she deserves to be "under"rated.
What's with your Venus hate?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If you criticize Venus constructively with logical facts, all of a sudden you hate her?

The numbers don't lie. Venus won and lost those matches on clay I'm just presenting facts. Pam Shriver says Venus won't win RG this year and it is such a crime like Venus hasn't passed the third round there in three years this year what's wrong with her? :rolleyes:
 

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If you criticize Venus constructively with logical facts, all of a sudden you hate her?

The numbers don't lie. Venus won and lost those matches on clay I'm just presenting facts. Pam Shriver says Venus won't win RG this year and it is such a crime like Venus hasn't passed the third round there in three years this year what's wrong with her? :rolleyes:
If it's you who goes into all threads related to Venus and use "numbers" for your argument, then yes. You do hate her.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Be in denial. Only Venus can prove me wrong by her performances on red clay. Have faith in your favorite. :)

Will Vernus or Venus show up?
 
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