Sick of Graf and Navratilova fans fighting over who is the best of all time?
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here comes the Monica-Steffi battle again. I will start Monica is the greatest because she was stabbed by a Steffi fan but she isn`t the greatest because she was to lazy to play doubles(he nav fans used that argument for Steffi while she still won wimbledon in 88 so in that case it also counts for Monica who never played doubles after aussie open 91 till she was stabbed in grand slams), My conclusion is that Kimmy is the greatest because somebody told me tonight that being greatest only depends on taste but then Steffi is my all time fav but she is left out here and since I never supported any player as hard as Kimmy after Steffi, she must be the greatest
It doesn't matter how you ask, ball change pls, the minute they get here, they'll get into the thread to start arguing over N.1 again
Personally, I would give Chris Evert the N.3 of all time... I would consider BJK, if I didn't personally dislike her so (I wouldn't even nominate her for the "worst glasses award" just for not having to have her on the podium ) ... I think Evonne and Seles are behind... and Court and Lenglen, I really think greatness comes with having great rivals... I would place them above Evonne, Seles and BJK (of course! ), but not over Evert.
Personally, I would give Chris Evert the N.3 of all time... I would consider BJK, if I didn't personally dislike her so
(I wouldn't even nominate her for the "worst glasses award" just for not having to have her on the podium ) ... I think Evonne and Seles are behind... and Court and Lenglen, I really think greatness comes with having great rivals... I would place them above Evonne, Seles and BJK (of course! ), but not over Evert.I agree with you Gallofa. I would put Evert no 3 for the following reasons:
* same era as Navratilova, but still 28 GS singles
* no.2 in most tournaments won as well as singles matches won (behind Martina)
* 3 Wimbeldon titles despite grass being her worst surface
* 125 match winning streak on clay
* only one loss before the QF of all grandslams entered, and only 4 times lost before semis overall- amazing!
I'm a little biased towards Evert though, and against Margaret! . I wouldn't even put Margaret Court in the top 5 even though she has the most grandslam singles titles!
Irma, let the Seles debate begin! For once, it will not be used in relation to Garf, but to elevate seles!
I would probably put Lenglan 4 and seles 5, and BJK 6........
* same era as Navratilova, but still 28 GS singles
* no.2 in most tournaments won as well as singles matches won (behind Martina)
* 3 Wimbeldon titles despite grass being her worst surface
* 125 match winning streak on clay
* only one loss before the QF of all grandslams entered, and only 4 times lost before semis overall- amazing!
I'm a little biased towards Evert though, and against Margaret!
. I wouldn't even put Margaret Court in the top 5 even though she has the most grandslam singles titles!Irma, let the Seles debate begin! For once, it will not be used in relation to Garf, but to elevate seles!
I would probably put Lenglan 4 and seles 5, and BJK 6........
You can only play who shows up.
Is Steffi's record inflated because a better player (at the time) was off the tour for three years.
Is Court's record inflated because the top players didn't all play OZ in those days?
Chris Evert relates a story of a GS final she skunked BJK pretty badly in. Later she found out Billie Jean had been running around the city all day meeting with tour sponsors and potential sponsors while Chrissie was resting up for the final. How many more GS tiltles would BJK have won if she had been focusing solely on tennis like her competition, instead of also being the driving force behind building the tour?
How many championships would Margo or Martina or Steffi or Chrissie have won with the rackets and training techniques available to Helen Wills Moody (19 GS singles titles)?
I can make a sound defense for
#1 Court
#2 Navratilova
#3 King
#4 Graf
#5 Evert
#6 Moody
#7 Seles
That isn't the order I happen to believe in, but it's defensible.
All time best will never be answered.
For you Americans - Babe Ruth vs Barry Bonds?
Ruth had a higher average, but pitching was a lot worse in those days. And no Black players. And no relief pitchers. OTOH, expansion has diluted the quality of pitching today.
In short, the discussion is fun, as long as you don't expect agreement at the end of day.
If all these players had been forced to work with the equipment, training and sexism Helen Wills Moody endured, they wouldn't have come close to her. (Now, how can you DIS-prove that statement?)
Is Steffi's record inflated because a better player (at the time) was off the tour for three years.
Is Court's record inflated because the top players didn't all play OZ in those days?
Chris Evert relates a story of a GS final she skunked BJK pretty badly in. Later she found out Billie Jean had been running around the city all day meeting with tour sponsors and potential sponsors while Chrissie was resting up for the final. How many more GS tiltles would BJK have won if she had been focusing solely on tennis like her competition, instead of also being the driving force behind building the tour?
How many championships would Margo or Martina or Steffi or Chrissie have won with the rackets and training techniques available to Helen Wills Moody (19 GS singles titles)?
I can make a sound defense for
#1 Court
#2 Navratilova
#3 King
#4 Graf
#5 Evert
#6 Moody
#7 Seles
That isn't the order I happen to believe in, but it's defensible.
All time best will never be answered.
For you Americans - Babe Ruth vs Barry Bonds?
Ruth had a higher average, but pitching was a lot worse in those days. And no Black players. And no relief pitchers. OTOH, expansion has diluted the quality of pitching today.
In short, the discussion is fun, as long as you don't expect agreement at the end of day.
If all these players had been forced to work with the equipment, training and sexism Helen Wills Moody endured, they wouldn't have come close to her. (Now, how can you DIS-prove that statement?)
Volcana-the King final Evert was referring to wasn't a slam. It was Philadelphia in 1978.
To be considered for an all-time #1 you have to have something others don't. Using that logic, only a few are "contenders' for the top.
In order by date played.
Lenglen- dominant(lost only once after the age of 14), won lots of majors,including 6 Wimbledons.
Wills-again dominant(won about 180 matches straight and undefeated for nearly 7 years. If the Aussie isn't counted, she has the most major event wins.
Court-has the most slams(24)-though 12 of those are in the weakest, the Aussie. And a grand slam, in 1970.
Evert-Has lots of slams(18), record 13 years straight as a winner in majors(1974-86)-consistency her unique advantage.
Navratilova-Has lots of slams(18)-most dominant season among those after World War II(losing one match in 1983)-strongest case is she has the most titles(9) at the most important event, Wimbledon.
Graf-has the most slams outside Court(22). Grand slam in 1988.
Only one with 4 wins in each slam.
Outside those 6 no "expert" has ever chosen another candidate. Personally, I think Evert's case is the weakest of the 6, but if consistency was the only criteria, she would be #1.
This excludes those NEAR the top who for one reason or another have gaps or less titles. These women are often in an-time top ten, but you'll never see them listed at the top.
Connolly-won 9 straight slams entered,including a 1953 grand slam. Simply had too short a career to(ended in a horseriding accident) move up. Before Court came along in the 1960's, she was always #3 on all-time lists. Big question mark for what might have been.
King-has lots of slams(13?) but is clearly behind Court, Evert, Martina, etc. Only has 1 slam on clay, her weakest surface. Missed a chance at a grand slam in 1972 when she didn't play the Aussie.
Seles-has won lots of slams(9), may add to others, but without a Wimbledon title on her weakest surface, she can't move up. Of course her stabbing puts a big question mark on what might have been.
To be considered for an all-time #1 you have to have something others don't. Using that logic, only a few are "contenders' for the top.
In order by date played.
Lenglen- dominant(lost only once after the age of 14), won lots of majors,including 6 Wimbledons.
Wills-again dominant(won about 180 matches straight and undefeated for nearly 7 years. If the Aussie isn't counted, she has the most major event wins.
Court-has the most slams(24)-though 12 of those are in the weakest, the Aussie. And a grand slam, in 1970.
Evert-Has lots of slams(18), record 13 years straight as a winner in majors(1974-86)-consistency her unique advantage.
Navratilova-Has lots of slams(18)-most dominant season among those after World War II(losing one match in 1983)-strongest case is she has the most titles(9) at the most important event, Wimbledon.
Graf-has the most slams outside Court(22). Grand slam in 1988.
Only one with 4 wins in each slam.
Outside those 6 no "expert" has ever chosen another candidate. Personally, I think Evert's case is the weakest of the 6, but if consistency was the only criteria, she would be #1.
This excludes those NEAR the top who for one reason or another have gaps or less titles. These women are often in an-time top ten, but you'll never see them listed at the top.
Connolly-won 9 straight slams entered,including a 1953 grand slam. Simply had too short a career to(ended in a horseriding accident) move up. Before Court came along in the 1960's, she was always #3 on all-time lists. Big question mark for what might have been.
King-has lots of slams(13?) but is clearly behind Court, Evert, Martina, etc. Only has 1 slam on clay, her weakest surface. Missed a chance at a grand slam in 1972 when she didn't play the Aussie.
Seles-has won lots of slams(9), may add to others, but without a Wimbledon title on her weakest surface, she can't move up. Of course her stabbing puts a big question mark on what might have been.
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Anyway you cut it Martina N. is the all-time greatest. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
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I believe it is Evert. Taking into account her competition, she still manages to have a 125 match streak on clay as well as 18 slams. She also has the second highest amount of titles on the tour. Futhermore, she has only on one occasion lost before the QFs of a slam. That is truly amazing.
Rollo, I would be interested to hear why you would put Evert in at number 6. I think that she was as dominant in the 70s as Navratilova in the 80s and graf in the 90s. Sure she didn't have a year when she only lost one match, but she had her own unique records. I think though that the most dominant strecthes in the modern era were when Martina won six grandslams on the trot, and Monicas 8 out of 9 slams.
Someone said in another thread that Evonne's achievements are always underrated. it is interesting her name has not been raised in the debate.....
Someone said in another thread that Evonne's achievements are always underrated. it is interesting her name has not been raised in the debate.....
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Don't argue with Irma. She can quote you the scores of every Steffi match. Irma LOVES Steffi.
Anyway, I think Steffi Graf is the all time best player with Martina Nav. second and Chrissy third. In fact, I would make them just about equal because, as someone else said, they each dominated at various times.
P.S. I love Steffi too.
She can quote you the scores of every Steffi match. Irma LOVES Steffi.Anyway, I think Steffi Graf is the all time best player with Martina Nav. second and Chrissy third. In fact, I would make them just about equal because, as someone else said, they each dominated at various times.
P.S. I love Steffi too.
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