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You know, reading the "Do You Believe In God" thread, there were alot of good points made on both sides of the coin. Now, I am obviously a beliveler, but there are a few things that I would like non belivers to know:

1) I Do Believe, but just because I do, does not mean that I have the answers to all the questions. No one does, whether they believe or not, so never let anyone tell you otherwise,

2) I do believe that organized religion is, as a whole, very arrogant and self serving. But I can seperate my belief in God from organized religion if only because the organized religion reresents some humans views and not the word of God. Far too much hypocrisy!

3) The Jerry Falwells of the world do not speak for all "Christians". I believe these people are teaching intolerance and I believe that there is far too much of that in the world. That is exactly why we have the problems we do! Of Course we all think differently, but we need to learn to tolerate different points of view and respect them. Because someone thinks differently, or does things differently does not mean they are wrong! Every other point of view is as valid as our own!

4) The Wars, famine, poverty, et all are not Gods fault! These things are our fault! There have been alot of wars fought in Gods name, but believe me, that was not about God, it was about some mans thirst for power! And there is no reason why anyone on this planet should be hungry, homeless or not recieving proper medical care. But you let the politics, greed, pride, prejudice, et all come into the picture, this is what you get! These things are about man, not God!

5) Wether or not you believe is your choice and one cannot force ones beliefs on another. And it has nothing to do with whether or not you are a good person. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and an open heart.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank You, Thank You! (Barrie Takes A Bow!)
 

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Wow, is that really you, Barry? All these sensible posts in a row! If it wasn't for you avatar I'd think you're an imposter;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Tine said:
Wow, is that really you, Barry? All these sensible posts in a row! If it wasn't for you avatar I'd think you're an imposter;)
Are you suprised that there is some depth there? Well, shhhh..... do not tell anyone! I don't want everyone to know how wonderful I am! :bounce: :bounce: :p :p
 

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2) Organized religion confuses me more than religion itself. I have no probalem with it, but I cannot understand how each religion will not accomodate other views.
I was in an RE debate (we are forced to attend relgious education lessons in school) and one boy said that all non-Christians would rot in hell. And that annoys me that there is no accomodation, each religion has no tollerance of others.

or is that a response for 3??

I have an open mind about it of course, and am (or like to think I am tollerant) towards all relgions, BUT.

1) when Northern Ireland is such a mess because of religion

2) when people have conferences encouraging others of one religion to murder others of a different religion

I can't empathise .... and struggle to be unopinionated
 

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Discussion Starter #7
veryborednow said:
2) Organized religion confuses me more than religion itself. I have no probalem with it, but I cannot understand how each religion will not accomodate other views.
I was in an RE debate (we are forced to attend relgious education lessons in school) and one boy said that all non-Christians would rot in hell. And that annoys me that there is no accomodation, each religion has no tollerance of others.

or is that a response for 3??

I have an open mind about it of course, and am (or like to think I am tollerant) towards all relgions, BUT.

1) when Northern Ireland is such a mess because of religion

2) when people have conferences encouraging others of one religion to murder others of a different religion

I can't empathise .... and struggle to be unopinionated
Now Ya See Why I Seperate My Belief In God From Organized Religon. It Seems To Me That Organized Religon Is Less About God Than Man Because Men Has Used Religon As An Excuse To Do All Sorts Of UnGodly Things!
 

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Good post Barrie... :)
I do believe in God...and He believes in me...that's the best part...He longs for my best!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, Thanx Jas!:hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
 

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hmmm, is this the same barriedude we all know:eek: :eek:

well, let's see...

1) I Do Believe, but just because I do, does not mean that I have the answers to all the questions. No one does, whether they believe or not, so never let anyone tell you otherwise,
I don't believe but I couldn't agree more :)

2) I do believe that organized religion is, as a whole, very arrogant and self serving. But I can seperate my belief in God from organized religion if only because the organized religion reresents some humans views and not the word of God. Far too much hypocrisy!
Agree again except for one thing, all I know regarding God come from an organized religion, if we recognize organized religions represent human views and not the word of God, then, if their base is that they spread the word of God, there is a huge contradiction there (not yours Barrie, of the organized religions). Our knowledge, or faith in God come from the Bible, or the Koran, or the Tora, etc. and those books are the base or organized religions and were written by men, I don't know if I am clear :confused:

3) The Jerry Falwells of the world do not speak for all "Christians". I believe these people are teaching intolerance and I believe that there is far too much of that in the world. That is exactly why we have the problems we do! Of Course we all think differently, but we need to learn to tolerate different points of view and respect them. Because someone thinks differently, or does things differently does not mean they are wrong! Every other point of view is as valid as our own!
Again, could agree more :) just one addition, the Jerry Falwells and other fanatics are a product of organized religions, sure, the vast majority of believers don't act like that, but those individuals are created by religions, and in some religions, the number of fanatic freaks is way too high.

4) The Wars, famine, poverty, et all are not Gods fault! These things are our fault! There have been alot of wars fought in Gods name, but believe me, that was not about God, it was about some mans thirst for power! And there is no reason why anyone on this planet should be hungry, homeless or not recieving proper medical care. But you let the politics, greed, pride, prejudice, et all come into the picture, this is what you get! These things are about man, not God!
You are right again, specially in the facts that often, the name of God has been used as an excuse to commit atrocities, and as a way to control others and get power.

However, there is an intrinsic contradiction there, and that is one of the most obvious contradictions of every religion. If God is so powerful, so perfect, why does he allow all of that?, yeah, I now, he gave the human race freedom of choice, it's our choice, blah blah but, they say everything is originated in God, so, our thoughts, feelings, wishes, fears, etc, are part of everything and then, they come from God, so, even if the men have the choice to act well or bad, their choice, according to the religions really comes from God, so, then IT IS God's fault.

They say that God is love, if he loves us that much, why does he allow all the suffering?, if he is so powerful, it would be easy for him to avoid that, so.

Basically, they say God is perfect, if he is perfect, he won't be interested in us, simple mortals.

5) Wether or not you believe is your choice and one cannot force ones beliefs on another. And it has nothing to do with whether or not you are a good person. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and an open heart.
Totally agree again, I can't add anything to that :)
 

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But what about terrible things that happen to good people, where free will has nothing to do with it. Awful things happening for no good reason.

Millions upon millions of people are dying of Aids in Africa, suffering horribly.

If you were all powerful wouldn't you stop it? Regardless of any arcane rules, surely you would.

I would dearly love there to be an all powerful, kindly force out there. Maybe there is. But look at the world, and you won't see much evidence of it.
 

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Chris Ba:

He knows that there are millions of people suffering form Aids, poverty, and other issues not only in Africa but around the world. I think that he lets us handle our own problems. If he would stop every horrible thing that happened, we might as well live in the ''perfect world''. Maybe if people had more faith in him, the world wouldn't have all these problems like we did before and now.
 

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Yeah everything is originated by God, but the free will that he gave us is OUR OWN. As individuals, our thoughts, fears, wishes, beliefs, actions are based on the individual. They don't come from God. If he were controlling those feelings, what's the point of creating us anyway.

Technically, the bible is a history book. There are other books that were written before the bible. How about philoshophers who were born in the BC (before Christ) era. How do you know Socrates, Aristotle, and other Greek/Roman/other empires and civilizations existed? Where language/alphabets evovled from? How do we know the exact dates when events happen? Because it's written in History Books? Or maybe because they found proof.
 

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"Wether or not you believe is your choice and one cannot force ones beliefs on another."

---> But many Christians (not just, but mainly) have been trying to preach and force their beliefs onto so many non-believers from the beginning of time to now! :confused: Often in the past with a sword by the throat if u know what i mean. You have no idea how many times passers-by e.g. Mormans or whatever denomination they belong to have tried to preach to me. Unfortunately, I must admit even my friends have. Eeesh.

"Maybe if people had more faith in him, the world wouldn't have all these problems like we did before and now."

---> Sorry dear, but usually it's the people or groups of people who has the MOST faith that usually end up causing the problems. Crusades, extremists, holocaust etc... I'm not a history expert but you get the drift right?
 

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What's wrong with preaching?? They want to spread the word! And nobody's forcing you to believe :rolleyes: , unless they put a gun in your head or whatever and say that you have to be this or that religion or else!

The holocaust? Were they even religious? They wanted to get rid of Jews, but what was their reason? Religion?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree with getting the word out, but there is a fine line between being informative and being percieved as forcing your views on another. It is a diffucult art to master, but it is not something that is limited to religon.

Let me remind you that there are no guarantee's that life is fair. And, blaming God for all life's problems is not really fair as we need to take some resonsibilty for our own lives and the lives of those around us. We, as a society, have failed miserably if there is hunger, homelessness, crime, etc out there because we are the ones that put up with it. It is far easier to blame God (or anyone else!) for these problems than to accept some resonsiblity for these problems and do something about it. I am as much to blame as anyone.
 

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No ofence but i am a non-believer i personaly think religion is a heap of crap!Religion is the cause of almost all wars in this world.
Northen Ireland and the whole world trade center thing are just examples in my life that i no of!

I think its wrong to force religion on children at a young age they should have the right to choose later on in life wheather or not they wnat to follow religion.

I think everyone should have the right to follow their own belifs but have no right to force them on others!
 

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Barrie_Dude:

It's hard to blame someone whose existence you don't believe in. ;)

The point of "blaming God" is to show the difficulty of reconciling the experienced reality of the world with a belief in a all-loving, all-knowing, omnipotent Creator.

And if God just don't care - if she's perhaps busy in another department of the Universe - why waste our energy serving her instead of focusing our efforts on what we do know to be real?

Strong religious belief is not without ramifications. It impacts our own life, our surroundings, and, ultimately, society as a whole. Is it too much to ask that people at least have some evidence on which to base their beliefs? That they don't simply assume something to be true without seriously pondering it.

Take a fellow like the Sai Baba. This Indian, self-pronounced God has 60 million followers around the world. But there's strong evidence to suggest two things: a) His so-called miracles are cheap magic tricks. b) He sexually abuses boys and young men during private sessions. Still, many believers refuse to even question this Messiah.

http://www.sathyasaivictims.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Iconoclast said:
Barrie_Dude:

It's hard to blame someone whose existence you don't believe in. ;)

The point of "blaming God" is to show the difficulty of reconciling the experienced reality of the world with a belief in a all-loving, all-knowing, omnipotent Creator.

And if God just don't care - if she's perhaps busy in another department of the Universe - why waste our energy serving her instead of focusing our efforts on what we do know to be real?

Strong religious belief is not without ramifications. It impacts our own life, our surroundings, and, ultimately, society as a whole. Is it too much to ask that people at least have some evidence on which to base their beliefs? That they don't simply assume something to be true without seriously pondering it.

Take a fellow like the Sai Baba. This Indian, self-pronounced God has 60 million followers around the world. But there's strong evidence to suggest two things: a) His so-called miracles are cheap magic tricks. b) He sexually abuses boys and young men during private sessions. Still, many believers refuse to even question this Messiah.

http://www.sathyasaivictims.com/
Well, I am sorry that your experiences have been so necative! But, you dfo have a right to your beliefs!
 

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I have to take issue with #5.

Generally when someone asks me to open my mind, what they are really asking is for me to agree with them.
 
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