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Discussion Starter #21
Re: Excessive moderation II

@John., I think one reason is the (too) permissive policy regarding offensive and insulting posts (at least in my opinion). I often see posts edited or deleted by mods with no further repercussions to the posters. The admins should use their right to ban those who are here only to insult or mock players and other board members. GM often looks like a cesspool which makes many decent posters to stay away from it.
Have you considered that even the site traffic might improve if said posters are being forcibly removed if they refuse to comply?
On the other hand said permissive policy only makes mods and admins job harder since the usual suspects know they risk very little when posting offensive and rude comments. They do it again and again.
What I'm saying is that the rules in place are good, but not enforced enough to make a real impact.
Posters don't know what repercussions there are for other posters that break the rules as we don't share that information (unless they are banned). Again, banning/infracting is not something we enjoy doing, and is a last resort. That doesn't mean to say we don't take action when it is required.

And while I understand the point you're trying to make, if we banned/infracted every time someone said something offensive or against the rules, we'd drive even more people away. We don't want this place to become a police state.

Again, we can't please everyone with the actions we take, but we do try and enforce the rules as much as we can.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

I think of this site as a team effort as well and like everyone we don't read every thread so sometimes offensive posts can be left around due to us being unaware of its existance so we implore anyone who sees a post that is against the rules to report and let us deal with it and try and refrain contributing to a thread getting further derailed by posting comments to the poster who made the original offensive posts.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

It's not that we are trying to stifle debate, but the threads about Maria have been going round in circles for over a year now. While we understand that it's an important topic and posters want to discuss it, it seems that some are unable to do this and stick to the rules of the forum at the same time. That's despite numerous warnings in the multiple threads about the topic. The original thread that we closed had numerous clean ups due to bickering, offensive posting, attacking players (not just Maria), off topic discussion. Each time it was reopened, posters were asked to stay on topic. We try to be as fair as we can, and we know we can't please everyone, but how many times can we say the same thing without taking, what we felt, was the only course of action



We've not been asked by anyone to stifle debate. As I say, we're happy for posters to discuss things in a reasonable manner, but that seems impossible with this topic.



Not true at all. We don't want to spend our time locking threads, deleting/editing posts. We joined this forum because, like everyone here, we enjoy tennis and wanted a place to discuss it. Mods are volunteers on here, and they still want to enjoy the forum like other posters. And no one said anywhere about you having to agree with anything or only being allowed to like certain players. You can disagree with what you want and dislike who you want, as long as you don't do in an offensive way.



If you have examples, we can certainly look at it. No one is trying to stop people having fun and anything that is deleted is because it is against the rules.

I'm happy for posters to PM me, or any other mod/admin, if they have any major concerns about things, and we'll try our best to resolve the issue. But as I said earlier, we can't always please everyone and any moderation we do, is because it's against the rules of the forum.

The rules have always been there. They didn't just come into effect March 2016
John, thank you for taking the time to respond. As I said in my OP on the whole the mods do a good job and I'm sure it's not always easy - this is certainly not intended to be an exercise in 'mod bashing'. I take your point about some people not being able to debate respectfully and on-topic but it's a shame that those who can, and do, suffer alongside the offending posters when a thread is deleted or locked.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Re: Excessive moderation II

John, thank you for taking the time to respond. As I said in my OP on the whole the mods do a good job and I'm sure it's not always easy - this is certainly not intended to be an exercise in 'mod bashing'. I take your point about some people not being able to debate respectfully and on-topic but it's a shame that those who can, and do, suffer alongside the offending posters when a thread is deleted or locked.
No problem, and I've not taken the thread to be mod bashing either. I'd rather if posters had concerns about the way things were moderated or if they needed further clarity in the rules that they reached out, whether it be a thread here or by PM.

And it is a shame and it was a last resort. Now, if there is new ground breaking news about Maria or her comeback, then a thread can be opened to discuss it. We're not banning all discussion about her, but for the time being, there is nothing new to report hence the decision to close it. I hope you understand.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

Posters don't know what repercussions there are for other posters that break the rules as we don't share that information (unless they are banned). Again, banning/infracting is not something we enjoy doing, and is a last resort. That doesn't mean to say we don't take action when it is required.

And while I understand the point you're trying to make, if we banned/infracted every time someone said something offensive or against the rules, we'd drive even more people away. We don't want this place to become a police state.

Again, we can't please everyone with the actions we take, but we do try and enforce the rules as much as we can.
I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Re: Excessive moderation II

I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.
We would never ban someone for their first offence, unless it was for something really bad.

Here is the FAQ around Infractions & Banning. Hopefully that'll help you understand things a bit more.

http://www.tennisforum.com/220-site-rules-faq/366921-banned-poster-questions.html

Again, and to reiterate Marcus's post, we can't be online 24/7. We also can't view every thread when we are online, so there may be times when we miss things. That's when we need you guys to use the report button to highlight anything inappropriate/offensive etc

And closing threads is a last resort. We try and posts warnings in the threads were we can before we close them. It's only if that's ignored that we'll eventually close it.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.
A system based on an initial warning (whether by PM from a mod, or official record) and then subsequent action depending on severity of offence might clear things up a bit so that everyone is on the same page. I think in part there should be communication on what kind of behaviours lead to thread closure so that this can be avoided without needing to mention specific posters. I agree that those who drive thread closure are effectively disrupting the forum's operations and there should be consequences for this.

It seems anyway this is what is going on:

Thread activity goes out of hand - some personal attacks, player bashing thrown around.
Mods find a mess and close the thread for cleanup or even stomp it for good.
"What happened to my post(s)? Why is this thread closed?" Complaints about excessive moderation arise.

Of course mods are simply doing their job and don't need to say anything about what they do, actually, but I feel the onus should be more on the posters to know their responsibilities and the boundaries when posting so that threads do not need to be closed on a regular basis. This is where enforcement should have a more directed and personal touch. The posters who consistently break the rules will repeat offences but those who don't may have one misdemeanour, receive a warning and will generally not repeat offend. Pointing to the T&C may be helpful, those who sign up to the forum have to adhere to its rules. We don't need a strict by the letter approach but there should be concrete guidelines so posters and mods both have common agreement on where they stand.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

@John., I think one reason is the (too) permissive policy regarding offensive and insulting posts (at least in my opinion). I often see posts edited or deleted by mods with no further repercussions to the posters. The admins should use their right to ban those who are here only to insult or mock players and other board members. GM often looks like a cesspool which makes many decent posters to stay away from it.
Have you considered that even the site traffic might improve if said posters are being forcibly removed if they refuse to comply?
On the other hand said permissive policy only makes mods and admins job harder since the usual suspects know they risk very little when posting offensive and rude comments. They do it again and again.
What I'm saying is that the rules in place are good, but not enforced enough to make a real impact.
:spit: :spit: :spit:

More like certain fanbases are extremely oversensitive and complain about anything, or even make issues into huge identity politics messes that get very heated and out of hand.

The board would have more traffic if everyone took themselves less seriously. TF is famous for messy nicknames and such, it's the heart of this place.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Re: Excessive moderation II

Of course mods are simply doing their job and don't need to say anything about what they do, actually, but I feel the onus should be more on the posters to know their responsibilities and the boundaries when posting so that threads do not need to be closed on a regular basis. This is where enforcement should have a more directed and personal touch. The posters who consistently break the rules will repeat offences but those who don't may have one misdemeanour, receive a warning and will generally not repeat offend. Pointing to the T&C may be helpful, those who sign up to the forum have to adhere to its rules. We don't need a strict by the letter approach but there should be concrete guidelines so posters and mods both have common agreement on where they stand.
Just a couple of things on your last point, we're happy to explain any actions we take, and try to do so were we can. We're not any better than anywhere here, so we're as accountable for our actions as the rest of the forum is.

BIB, we do have a sticky in GM which has the rules of that forum. This is what we as mods adhere to and what we would expect the posters to adhere to also. There is also an announcement up (been there for a few months now) about the use of offensive nicknames. You also mentioned T&C's that each new member has to agree to upon signing up. I'm not sure what else we could add.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Re: Excessive moderation II

:spit: :spit: :spit:

More like certain fanbases are extremely oversensitive and complain about anything, or even make issues into huge identity politics messes that get very heated and out of hand.

The board would have more traffic if everyone took themselves less seriously. TF is famous for messy nicknames and such, it's the heart of this place.
Let's not turn the thread into a fanbase slanging match.

Nicknames are fine. No one has said they aren't, but again, there are limits.

12. Nicknames

Please do not use obscure nicknames in headers. Proper names are preferred for headers and the mods/admins will edit headers as deemed necessary.

Nicknames are a fun part of TF and GM, and it is our policy to allow nicknames that meet reasonable standards.

Nicknames that are excessively rude, sexist, racist, homophobic, insulting to a player’s religious faith, imply illegal use of performance enhancing or other drugs, sexual promiscuity and other such insults will be deleted/edited. Excessive use of such nicknames will be dealt with through warnings and suspensions as deemed appropriate.

Acceptable nicknames may be used freely in posts without penalty.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

We would never ban someone for their first offence, unless it was for something really bad.

Here is the FAQ around Infractions & Banning. Hopefully that'll help you understand things a bit more.

http://www.tennisforum.com/220-site-rules-faq/366921-banned-poster-questions.html

Again, and to reiterate Marcus's post, we can't be online 24/7. We also can't view every thread when we are online, so there may be times when we miss things. That's when we need you guys to use the report button to highlight anything inappropriate/offensive etc

And closing threads is a last resort. We try and posts warnings in the threads were we can before we close them. It's only if that's ignored that we'll eventually close it.
I guess it's about where you draw the line, I know it's a bit of a compromise and things can't be perfect here or anywhere else for that matter. Generally your team does a good job, what I was saying is that the lack of fear for punishment makes your job harder than it should.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

Let's not turn the thread into a fanbase slanging match.

Nicknames are fine. No one has said they aren't, but again, there are limits.

12. Nicknames

Please do not use obscure nicknames in headers. Proper names are preferred for headers and the mods/admins will edit headers as deemed necessary.

Nicknames are a fun part of TF and GM, and it is our policy to allow nicknames that meet reasonable standards.

Nicknames that are excessively rude, sexist, racist, homophobic, insulting to a player’s religious faith, imply illegal use of performance enhancing or other drugs, sexual promiscuity and other such insults will be deleted/edited. Excessive use of such nicknames will be dealt with through warnings and suspensions as deemed appropriate.

Acceptable nicknames may be used freely in posts without penalty.
Can I shoot you a specific question?

I stan for Radwanska and always call her things like Hag etc. her fanbase generally makes jokes about her flopping and such. Recently my posts calling her Hag have been deleted or edited to call her Aga and I really don't understand why?

It's not baiting anyone for arguments or anything, just a weird term of affection :shrug:
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

Ok, people upset, reacting on Sharapova's case, despite many players probably suffering from it, is something not allowed here. But bringing on another players, eventually calling them "cheaters" and above all, bringing up events from 12-13-14 years ago why is allowed? (for example, the obsession with Justine's hand incident case).
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Re: Excessive moderation II

I guess it's about where you draw the line, I know it's a bit of a compromise and things can't be perfect here or anywhere else for that matter. Generally your team does a good job, what I was saying is that the lack of fear for punishment makes your job harder than it should.
Thanks. We try, and as I said, we're not perfect.

Can I shoot you a specific question?

I stan for Radwanska and always call her things like Hag etc. her fanbase generally makes jokes about her flopping and such. Recently my posts calling her Hag have been deleted or edited to call her Aga and I really don't understand why?

It's not baiting anyone for arguments or anything, just a weird term of affection :shrug:
Of course. I think 'Hagatha' was used by some of her haters in the past, and there used to be a picture of a really ugly face posted along with it. I know when I see it I edit it, as calling someone a Hag is hardly complimentary.

I can speak to the mods about it and get their thoughts :)

Ok, people upset, reacting on Sharapova's case, despite many players probably suffering from it, is something not allowed here. But bringing on another players, eventually calling them "cheaters" and above all, bringing up events from 12-13-14 years ago why is allowed? (for example, the obsession with Justine's hand incident case).
If a player is called a cheater without specific proof of them being one, then that is not allowed. Report it. Calling someone handnin when she put her hand up during a match is hardly an insult or an obsession. That nickname has been around for 14 years.

:secret: If a thread is in desperate need of moderation, the secret trick is to insult Coco Vandeweghe.

I'm only half-joking. In the past couple of months it has just been bizarre what gets and doesn't get moderated in GM.

I also think you're bad at catching the deliberate shit-stirrers and trouble-makers.
Do you have examples? Again, we can't always catch everything. That's why there is a report button. If you see someone shit stirring or causing trouble and it hasn't been actioned, then let us know.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

If a player is called a cheater without specific proof of them being one, then that is not allowed. Report it. Calling someone handnin when she put her hand up during a match is hardly an insult or an obsession. That nickname has been around for 14 years.
Even so, of course it's an insult. "Meldopova" for example it also was, despite it showed some facts. And it was banned and prohibited from this site. So the same should be "Handnin". Yet I'm still not so sure this story was not fabricated by some haters. Justine was disliked by certain groups of people for many unproved facts. I don't think she cheated. If players would really cheat, they would be punished. As long as they are not punished, it means they aren't against the rules. It's simple. But anyway I don't want to derail the thread, just came up with an example. Because it's too old of a story some on here keep coming up in some subjects.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

:secret: If a thread is in desperate need of moderation, the secret trick is to insult Coco Vandeweghe.

I'm only half-joking. In the past couple of months it has just been bizarre what gets and doesn't get moderated in GM.


I also think you're bad at catching the deliberate shit-stirrers and trouble-makers.
Case in point:

Cheatermund: Used with some regularity in results threads involving Laura Siegemund.
Siegemund Fraud: Used once (by me), leading to the deletion of the post within a few minutes, although another post in the same thread containing the first nickname remained.

I see no material distinction between these nicknames. Either they are both acceptable, or neither are, and the first has been used sufficiently over the past 12 months or more that the moderators cannot have been ignorant of it. In the wider context, nicknames alluding to unsavoury, dubious, or dishonest conduct on the field of play have been and still are commonplace.

Maybe I'd just hit upon a particularly catchy nickname ... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Re: Excessive moderation II

Can we stop the bickering and personal attacks please?

Well, I remember things but for obvious reasons it's difficult to show you what has already been deleted. I don't keep a record of it. Sometimes you have to watch it unfold live.

On top of my head, an example of something that did not get deleted was black athletes referred to as degenerate ugly muscular dwarfs. I told an admin about it, but no action was taken. At the same the mods were busy vacuuming other threads for digs at Court (hot topic that day), mentions of moderation (to explain an edited thread title that no longer made sense), and other itty-bitty things. (It was a particularly strange day). I was not the only one who noticed the discrepancy, but of course any mentions of that got deleted too.

Reporting the usual suspects and repeat offenders for the 50th time seems pointless when nothing changes. The best of them (i.e. worst) know how to be subtle so that the individual posts in isolation or without context don't seem so offensive.
Thanks. I'm not sure why an admin wouldn't delete something like that, as it seems pretty offensive. I'll speak to the others about it. While it may seem strange to you, there was obviously a reason for the editing/deleting that was done. As I said, it's not something we enjoy or do on a whim. If you notice things like this happening and you are unsure why, then please feel free to send a GM mod or an admin a PM and they'll explain the reasons.

And while it may seem to you that nothing changes, reporting helps us a lot to catch things we might miss otherwise.
 

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Re: Excessive moderation II

Inconsistent moderation is the problem. The Sharapova thread was closed because it's "beating a dead horse" but discussions about player's form, games, looks and so on recur over and over again: there's clearly a double standard applied to that topic and, well, any other.

And the mods' robotic interpretation of the rules doesn't do anything to distinguish between quality and abusive/trolling posts. Well-written and well thought through posts get deleted because they veer slightly off topic or use a nickname while baiting and trolling (or just content-free) posts that keep within the rules remain.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Re: Excessive moderation II

Case in point:

Cheatermund: Used with some regularity in results threads involving Laura Siegemund.
Siegemund Fraud: Used once (by me), leading to the deletion of the post within a few minutes, although another post in the same thread containing the first nickname remained.

I see no material distinction between these nicknames. Either they are both acceptable, or neither are, and the first has been used sufficiently over the past 12 months or more that the moderators cannot have been ignorant of it. In the wider context, nicknames alluding to unsavoury, dubious, or dishonest conduct on the field of play have been and still are commonplace.

Maybe I'd just hit upon a particularly catchy nickname ... ;)
Well, for me, neither of those are suitable and both should have been edited. If you see it again, please report if it's not edited otherwise. Thanks
 
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