[alfajeffster]

We've seen Serena and Venus Williams come up through the ranks, and conquer the mental giants Martina Hingis and Lindsay Davenport, and grab ahold of the throne of women's tennis. What will it take for players like Justine, Kim, and Jen to break through the Williams mental toughness stranglehold and come out on top?

 

[selesrules]

Justine is 2-1 against Serena this year.

 

[Kart]

Actually I think Justine has done what she needs to against Serena. She has intense self belief which is what has really changed since last year IMHO.

Also she doesn't get intimidated by Serena which I think Kim and Jennifer still do.

Obviously, a grand slam win will only raise her confidence.

Against Venus though - who has a much less intimidatory attitude these days - I think it's her self belief which doesn't match up.

Venus is still the toughest mentally IMHO, in spite of her relative recent lack of form. All that fist pumping and spectacular shot making won't phase her.

 

[irma]

martina a mental giant? :haha:

 

[Volcana]

What will it take for players like Justine, Kim, and Jen to break through the Williams mental toughness stranglehold and come out on top?

I don't think there is a 'mental toughness stranglehold'. Players either learn how to handle pressure, or they don't. Hingis and Davenport didin't LOSE 'mental toughness'. Venus and Seren GAINED it.

Obviously, Henin-Hardenne has learned how to handle pressure situations better than Clijsters. That doesn't mean Clijsters won't win, or Henin-Hardenne won't lose.

 

[oddkayla]

I think mentally Venus Williams is superior! One of the things that Serena tries to do with the glares and the stares and whathave you is to intimidate opponents. She literally tries to frighten them and often times she succeeds. Where she does not succeed she is often in trouble. On the other hand, Venus possesses an aura that without seeing it opponents are aware of it and are in awe. Plus opponents know they will not be seeing signs of weakness from her, which they can pounce on. She is not ruffled! Solid as a rock, whether she is winning or losing you will not be seeing the score written all over her face. She is just prepared for the battle and for war!

Which is what I love and respect about her! I was never one for flambouyance or unnecessary fist pumps!

 

[alfajeffster]

martina a mental giant? :haha:

Oh, come on, Irma. Martina Hingis was the most intelligent player probably in the last 25 years. I love Graf as much as you do, but everybody has that one player they HATE to play, and don't perform well against, and for Hingis, it was Graf. Hingis was a mental giant among tennis mental midgets for a few years!

 

[alfajeffster]

I don't think there is a 'mental toughness stranglehold'. Players either learn how to handle pressure, or they don't. Hingis and Davenport didin't LOSE 'mental toughness'. Venus and Seren GAINED it.

Obviously, Henin-Hardenne has learned how to handle pressure situations better than Clijsters. That doesn't mean Clijsters won't win, or Henin-Hardenne won't lose.

My point exactly, and glad to see we agree on point: Venus and Serena lost consistently to Hingis and Davenport from 97-99, and then they both finally cut down on their unforced errors and double faults and begain playing more intelligent, consistent tennis, and broke through the Hingis/Davenport hold. They did what it took to gain that mental toughness and competitive edge. What will it take for Justine to break through once the Williams sisters return?

 

[Shuji Shuriken]

Oh, come on, Irma. Martina Hingis was the most intelligent player probably in the last 25 years. I love Graf as much as you do, but everybody has that one player they HATE to play, and don't perform well against, and for Hingis, it was Graf. Hingis was a mental giant among tennis mental midgets for a few years!

Most intelligent player? By what standard? Yours?

 

[alfajeffster]

Most intelligent player? By what standard? Yours?

If you ask John McEnroe, Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova, Tracy Austin, Chris Evert, Tony Trabert, and quite a few more, you'll come up with the same answer.

 

[Volcana]

What will it take for Justine to break through once the Williams sisters return?

I think she has. What decides future Henin-Hardenne vs Williams matches won't be mental toughness, but imagination, physical talent and shot-making. No one's gonna crack. Matches will have to be WON.

 

[Legends]

Venus possesses an aura that without seeing it opponents are aware of it and are in awe. Plus opponents know they will not be seeing signs of weakness from her, which they can pounce on. She is not ruffled! Solid as a rock, whether she is winning or losing you will not be seeing the score written all over her face. She is just prepared for the battle and for war!

Which is what I love and respect about her! I was never one for flambouyance or unnecessary fist pumps!

an in-form Venus will always be a problem for Justine. what she needs is to get a win out of an out-of-form Venus to build her self-believe but the way things have panned out so far with the Henin v Serena matches and the 'quotes/non-quotes' by others i do not think Venus will let herself play henin off-form.

i don't know how this tragedy will affect Venus' game, this year whole has been unfortunate for Venus but it was really 2002 that Justine should have capitalised on as this was the Year Venus deliberately took a step back from tennis.
AI 2002 when asked why she bothered/how she was able to turn a set and 4-1 game around. her reply was to the tune that she wanted to make the score more respectable (one of the lessons she learnt from AO01 defeat to Hingis was that even if you are going to lose at least lose respectably).
Venus was prepared to lose that match but the manner in which she would have lost had she continued to play the way she was did not sit well with her hence her change in strategy. of course having clawed back a set, she remained focussed enough to win the match.

Justine really missed a big opportunity there, however, with Venus things are cyclical, Justine may have to wait a while for another such opportunity to present itself.

 

[Legends]

oh and I forgot to add that with all the self-believe in the world
i still do not see an in-form justine beating an in-form Venus .

 

[DA FOREHAND]

"Actually I think Justine has done what she needs to against Serena. She has intense self belief which is what has really changed since last year IMHO.

Also she doesn't get intimidated by Serena which I think Kim and Jennifer still do."

Didn't serve her very well at Wimbledon, after she won her first slam. She looked like a squirrel trapped on a freeway.

Serena never lost consistanly to Lindsay, it was/is the other way around.

I think justine's wins over Kim in slam finals will give her a boost, but that boost is somewhat hollow as Kim's mental toughness doesn't measure up to either Williams sister.

 

[bandabou]

All the people who think that Serena lost in Paris because of Justine are fooling themselves.

Serena lost not because anything Justine did, but because she let the crowd get to her. It was IW´s all over again....you can play through it once, but the second time it gets to you.

See in that sense, Serena´s still a little-girl. That´s why she called Daddy to come for Wimbledon, because she feels more safe when Daddy´s around.

 

[DA FOREHAND]

I don't much care for justine, but she had something to do w/Serena losing that match.

 

[Kart]

Didn't serve her very well at Wimbledon, after she won her first slam. She looked like a squirrel trapped on a freeway.

That's true but do you really think that Justine really believed she could beat Serena on a grass court ?

I don't.

 

[DA FOREHAND]

According to her fans after winnin a slam she had believe that she could do anything, but to answer your question. NO

 

[Paneru]

I think mentally Venus Williams is superior! One of the things that Serena tries to do with the glares and the stares and whathave you is to intimidate opponents. She literally tries to frighten them and often times she succeeds. Where she does not succeed she is often in trouble. On the other hand, Venus possesses an aura that without seeing it opponents are aware of it and are in awe. Plus opponents know they will not be seeing signs of weakness from her, which they can pounce on. She is not ruffled! Solid as a rock, whether she is winning or losing you will not be seeing the score written all over her face. She is just prepared for the battle and for war!

Which is what I love and respect about her! I was never one for flambouyance or unnecessary fist pumps!

ITA!
One of the many
reasons why I love her!

 

[JustineTime]

I think she has. What decides future Henin-Hardenne vs Williams matches won't be mental toughness, but imagination, physical talent and shot-making. No one's gonna crack. Matches will have to be WON.

Well said. And the most accurate post in this thread, IMO.