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interesting stuff Rollo.
Ted Tinling talked about Big Helen and Little Helen in his book Love & Faults, but I'm not sure if he talked about that part of their rivalry. ;) Maybe I'll have to re-read it.
 

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The Wills/Jacobs story is sounds a little like the Evert-Lloyd-Evert-Mill-Evert/Navratilova story.
 

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c2,
Now you know the truth. The next time you go to a video store, go to the adult section and rent the "Real Chrissie/Martina Love Match" Series - quite interesting.
 

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It's not right for a kid to grow up in a homosexual envirement?
One of my friends lives with her dad, who is married to a man. First after her parents divorced she lived with her mom, but she was very unhappy there, her mom ruined her life. So she went to live with her father and his boyfriend (now husband). She's happy there. They take well care of her, etc.
So now Margeret is saying that it would have been better for my friend to live with her mother? Yeah, right! :rolleyes:

People can have their opinions as long as they're not hurting other people, and Margaret is clearly hurting people. So she should shut up :fiery:
 

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Helen Wills once talked about how she admired Martina Navratilova and enjoyed watching her play. I seriously doubt she was homophobic in any way.

And I've never read anything about Helen Jacobs making a pass at Helen Wills. What is the source of this story? A Magazine? Book? Newspaper? Imagination?
 

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Court has often expressed admiration of Navratilova's game. Does that make her any less homophobic?

BTW, I didn't say Jacobs made a pass at Wills. I said it was one version of many stories about these two. Given the times, it's far more likely that Wills may have misinterpreted Jacobs intentions. Even today a straight person who knows someone else is gay often thinks(for no good reason) that the gay perso is making a pass at them. What do you call that? I'd call it homophobia, and to some extent MOST people in the world are.
Again, given the times and Wills' conservative character, it would be no great shock that she was somewhat homophobic.
It was one possible explanation(among many) for the intense dislike the "Two Helens" shared.

Sources


Try Ted Tinling for starters. In Love and Faults. Ted knew both personally. Page 124-5.

"Fate, coincidence, chance, call it what you will, the story of two young girls with the same first name, who were reared on the same street, were educated at the same school and college, were coached by the same man. who lived, at different times, in the same house...is one of the strangest of all tennis sagas.

Outside their tennis, however, Helen Wills and Helen Jacobs, of Berkely, Claifornia, had nothing in common. On or off th ecourt they exchanged only a few dozen words in 15 years...

The fact that Helen Wills ruled the circuit unchallenged was accepted by all the girls except Helen Jacobs and her refusal to pay homage to Queen Wills lent credibilty to a picture of antagonism.

There were also dark rumours of religious differences and differences in sexual preferences. In the 20's such things were not publicly referred to....."

If you want more detail Zummi, then I'd suggest the only bio on Helen Wills-"The Goddess and the American Girl". Page 340.

Happy reading:wavey:

Whatever the cause-the "feud" was real. During the 1930 Wightman Cup at Wimbledon, Jacobs put her things in Wills private dressing room(only the Ladies champ had a private room) temporarily during a practice. Wills tossed all her belongings right out the second story window!:eek:
 

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Court said she admired Martina's game? When did she say this? 1975? Lots of people admired her game back then. If you have a more recent quote - preferably post-1990, that would be appreciated. Last I heard, Court thought Martina was a bad role model for aspiring tennis players.

Helen Wills was quoted as saying one thing she liked about Martina was that she "pumped iron" and was in such good physical shape.

I know that Helen Wills & Helen Jacobs couldn't stand each other. Everyone knows that. I asked for the source of those "versions" of the Helen-making-a-pass-at-Helen rigmarole. Nothing in Tinling's book nor Engelmann's book alluded to that story.
 

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How about saying Martina was a nice person and great player THE DAY she made her famous commnents Zummi?

Margaret Court Rips Navratilova as a Role Model
The Los Angeles Times; Los Angeles, Calif.; Jul 12, 1990;


Dateline:
PERTH, Australia

Wimbledon champion Martina Navratilova is a poor role model for young tennis players because she is a homosexual, says retired champion Margaret Court of Australia.
Court, a winner of 25 Grand Slam titles, three at Wimbledon, said in interviews that Navratilova's admitted homosexuality is a bad
example for younger players.

"(Navratilova) is a great player, but I'd like to see somebody at the top to whom the younger players can look up to," said Court, a
born-again Christian who lives in Perth. "It is very sad for children to be exposed to (homosexuality).

"Martina is a nice person. Her life has just gone astray."

Peter Johnson, who represents Navratilova for International Management Group, said she will have no comment on the story.

Court, 47, said some players have been led into homosexuality by other players, but did not name them. She said she believes
Navratilova was influenced into a lesbian lifestyle during her early years on the pro tour.

Karen Schwartz, deputy director of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation in New York, called Court's statements "totally
ridiculous."

"Underlying her statements is a complete ignorance of homosexuality," Schwartz said. "You don't catch it.

"Winning Wimbledon a record nine times qualifies you as a role model. That is the fundamental qualification. The rest has very little
to do with it."
 

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You have the page Zummi. Friends reported that Wills and Jacobs had had a conversation "full of double entendres" from Jacobs, that was Engelmann's way of putting it, and Wills was "enraged and refused to ever be alone again with Jacobs". Engelmann was

A. Reporting hearsay
B. Getting it second(or even thirdhand)
C. Hearing it from different sources.
D. The Principals(Wills and Jacobs) were still alive when the book
came out.

Add it all up and subtlety(rather than a bald statement like "some say Wills thought Jacobs made a pass at her") is required to "get it". I doubt Wills was supposedly upset by an offhand joke Zummi-read between the lines a bit.
 

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One can come up with lots of different assumptions if you choose to "read between the lines." I think it's best to avoid tarnishing people's reputations with unfounded and unproven gossip. Helen Jacobs & Helen Wills are both respectable champions and it is wrong to spoil their good names by alluding to them being guilty of improper behavior or holding bigoted opinions. That's all I have to say about that.
 

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is homosexuality all about the environment?i seriously dont think so cuz i know a gay couple who have a son who is straight.

and isnt homosexuality in the genes?somethign like gay guys being XXY?i know this cuz research was done and XYY is possible....most criminals are XYY.
 

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VCR said:
and isnt homosexuality in the genes?somethign like gay guys being XXY?i know this cuz research was done and XYY is possible....most criminals are XYY.
Er, no.

All guys are XY.

XXY (Kleinfelters syndrome) and XYY are extremely rare conditions.

There's an old thread in the non-tennis forum about theories of the origins of homosexuality if you're interested.
 
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