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Discussion Starter #1
To me, Kim is overrated. I never say any player who's no.3 in the world is anything other than a great player, and Kim has proved that she is. She's tested - and beaten - both of the Williams'.

But to me, Kim's game is not that of a future no.1. She doesn't have the acceleration in her shots. She's a curious mix between Hingis and Serena. She has Hingis' shot production and a similar technique. Yet Kim has far less finesse and talent than Hingis. At the same time, however, she's quicker than Hingis and far stronger. She's built like a European version of Serena Williams, which is to say that she's not QUITE as formidable an athlete as Serena (or Venus).

So I feel Kim is not QUITE as athletic as Serena and NOT quite as clever as Hingis.

Like Hingis, Kim's forehand is where she lacks acceleration. She can time power very well with her immense strength, but she can't attack forehand-to-forehand without losing length (that wasn't meant to rhyme! LOL).

So, is Kim more of a threat to the Williams' than say, Aranxta in her prime would have been?

To be honest, I think Aranxta of 1994 would been able to beat both of the Williams' on clay, and frustrated them on other surfaces. She had a game that didn't play into their hands and was designed to frustrate and counter. In her prime she had just boundless energy, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Aranxta NEVER gave up. You could knock her down love and love and she'd still come back fighting the next time. She would willingly run miles to win a point, and had the heart and courage of a lion.

I pick Aranxta because Graf and Seles were both dominant champions, as was Navratlova. I'm interested in Aranxta because she was in many ways in Kim's position in the early and mid-90s. Sabatini would be another candidate.

To me, so many of the players lose to Venus and Serena because they simply don't believe in themselves enough to take advantage of the chances they are given. Mauresmo, Capriati, Kim, Justine, Davenport are all the same.

I just think players in years gone by, unique players like Aranxta, would have ACTUALLY provided stiffer opposition than those of today.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Did you read the line when I said she's not quite as good in either department?

Of course it's not a bad thing, that's why she's no.3 in the world. But it's not enough to seriously challenge them, in my opinion. Both Serena and Venus are too good and match up to her game too well from her perspective.
 

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Steffica Greles said:
Did you read the line when I said she's not quite as good in either department?
Right. And she's also better at the Hingis things than Williams, better at the Williams things than Hingis. She'll be fine. Her results are an exact mirror of Venus at the same age. 1 Slam Final, career high ranking of #3.
 

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I dont think ASV would have been better competition than Kim or Justine today. I think she would be easily overpowered. When Venus and Serena were just starting out they had tough matches with her, and now they have improved so much i think they would beat her most of the time.
 

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I think Kim may be the best in terms of absolute ability in a way...but ASV posed more problems for W/S at the time because they were more or less just starting and not as good as they are now.
 

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ASV was far superior to Kim mentally in her prime. The fact that she never gave up on anything was key to her winning those grand slam titles. Kim is still getting better though and I see no reason why she can't be that good too.
 

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Kart said:
ASV was far superior to Kim mentally in her prime. The fact that she never gave up on anything was key to her winning those grand slam titles. Kim is still getting better though and I see no reason why she can't be that good too.
ITA Arantxa was definitely better in her prime then Kim is now. Who knows how many matches Arantxa came back from and I don't think I've ever seen her choke in a match. IMO the Kim today is like the Arantxa in 92-93, Arantxa wasn't a grand slam winner but she was one hell of a consistent player and was a threat to the top 2 as well. But yes I think Kim can definitely improve. :)

As far as matching the Williams' sisters. Arantxa always gave them tough matches, especially Venus. When Venus was at her best at the end of the 2000 (when she had that winning streak) Arantxa took Venus to 3 tough sets at the Olympics and even last year when Arantxa was not even close to her best she took Venus to 3 sets as well!
 

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TonyP said:
Hingis vs Venus 10-9

Hingis vs Serena, 6-7

That's all that needs to be said. Results don't lie.
No they don't-- but you conveniently omitted the fact that Venus won 4 of their last 5 matches. :eek:

Venus Williams (USA) vs. Martina Hingis (SUI)
1997-03-17 Key Biscayne Hardcourt R32 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-2
1997-07-28 San Diego Hardcourt R16 Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-2 6-1
1997-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 6-4
1998-01-12 Sydney Hardcourt R16 Venus Williams (USA) 3-6 6-4 7-5
1998-03-02 Indian Wells Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-0 7-6(7)
1998-03-16 Key Biscayne Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 5-7 6-2
1998-05-04 Rome Clay F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 2-6 6-3
1998-05-25 Roland Garros Clay QF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-3 6-4
1999-05-03 Rome Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-4 1-6 6-4
1999-08-02 San Diego Hardcourt F Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 6-0
1999-08-30 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 4-6 6-3
1999-09-27 Munich Indoor Carpet SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-2 6-7(6) 9-7
1999-10-11 Zurich Indoor Hardcourt F Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 6-4
1999-11-15 Chase Championships Indoor Carpet SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-4 7-6(2)
2000-06-26 Wimbledon Grass QF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 4-6 6-4
2000-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 4-6 6-3 7-5
2001-01-15 Australian Open Hardcourt SF Martina Hingis (SUI) 6-1 6-1
2001-03-19 Miami Hardcourt SF Venus Williams (USA) 6-3 7-6(6)
2002-04-29 Hamburg Clay SF Venus Williams (USA) 7-5 6-3
Martina Hingis (SUI) leads 10:9
Hard: Martina Hingis (SUI) leads 7:5
Clay: Tied 2:2
Grass: Venus Williams (USA) leads 1:0
Indoor: Venus Williams (USA) leads 2:1



Topic related, ASV definitely frustrated the Williames-- I don't see Kim doing this yet or if ever waaaaaaaaaa
 

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I get what you are saying Steffica.

Venus and Serena are like Monica and Steffi. Four very dominant players who separated themselves from the pack.

What Arantxa did, which Kim didn't, was that she had won a Slam at age 17, almost setting the scene for Arantxa's career. Obviously, things are tougher today, but Arantxa was a GS champ at a very early age which must have added to her confidence and mental toughness, which impacted on her future career.

I think Arantxa and Monica are THE most mentally toughest women out there. Kim may improve, but honestly, I don't think any of today's players (not even my beloved Jen) can match up to their level.

Kim does not seem as much of a threat to Venus/Serena as Arantxa was.

I mean even though Monica dominated their H2H (vs Arantxa) their matches were either close or very tight.

I can see Kim winning Slams, but I just don't know when.

In regards to Arantxa vs Williams, Arantxa 1994 vs Venus 2000 and Serena 2002 would have been a dream match-up.

Arantxa was the ultimate defensive player who had that extra ability to attack and place the ball extremely well. It was her speed that set a new level for on-court fitness (along with Monica's power and Steffi's athleticism).

Arantxa would have defnitely won some matches.
 

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Great post DEE :)
 

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Julian said:
As far as matching the Williams' sisters. Arantxa always gave them tough matches, especially Venus. When Venus was at her best at the end of the 2000 (when she had that winning streak) Arantxa took Venus to 3 tough sets at the Olympics and even last year when Arantxa was not even close to her best she took Venus to 3 sets as well!
Not to mention French open 2000 :D. Amazing to think that Venus would go on to win Wimbledon a month later.
 

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I think Kim's game is that of the current number 2.
 

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INifiti: And you conveniently omitted that Hingis was playing far from her best tennis in the last two years. Overall, Hingis exceeds Venus in every category. Her accomplishments in tennis far overshadow Venus'. 209 weeks at #1 vs?????
 

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Pathetic you would even mention this because it makes Martina seem even more past her prime. Yeah, yeah, we know all about "before her 21st birthday....yada yada yada..." But to toss around her achievements now has about as much meaning as tossing around those of Margaret Court. Face it: Hingis is/ was the hollowing #1 in history and the more you gloat about her weeks at #1, the more you remind everyone just HOW hollow.
 

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The only thing with Sanchez-Vicario was that she'd need some extra bulk

but if she had that, then yeah definately
 

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when avs was playing the williams sisters were just starting out. same with hingis, when you show those head to heads it definitely shows that hingis won those events in the beginning of the sisters careers when hingis was more dominant. i don't know how avs would play the williams sisters now. i don't think you can make this kind of analysis unless we've seen avs play the sisters at the peak of both parties.
 

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But the facts are that the big Williams sisters could NOT get to the top while little Martina was there and I suspect that is what Williams fans hate the most about her.
 
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