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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was just watching the Wimbledon SF between Kim and Venus again, and it's incedible how well Kim was able to rally with Venus from the baseline - on grass. Even before Venus was injured, Kim was already up a break after playing beautiful, aggressive tennis. She was getting everything back, and she was pounding Venus with her groundstrokes. Kim then choked when leading by a set and a break.

If you think to the Open final from last weekend, Kim was easily outhitting Justine to go up 5-4 and 15-40. Then the wheels came off mentally, and Kim handed the match to Justine.

My point is this - Kim can outhit anyone on any surface when she is playing well. If she could have kept her mental game together, she could have easily won 2-3 majors this year. Let's see if she can improve that aspect of her game like Justine did...
 

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umm, there's always a lot of 'ifs' with players. If Elena D. improved her serve, she could win GS titles, if Venus served and volleyed more, she could be unstoppable, if Monica worked on her movement, she'd take the rankings by storm, if Jelena played less tennis, she could have a better record, if Martina didn't have foot problems, she could still compete at the top of the tour....etc.etc.etc. It's really up to the player to decide whether she wants to make an improvement in that area.

nevertheless, I do hope Kim gets it together next year for the big matches :yeah:
 

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So many if´s indeed....if Serena had went more serious about her tennis after ´99 she would already have 8 or 9 slams.

Yeah Kim has potential, but right now it ain´t just about Kim on the tour. Kim can´t honestly say that her best beats everybody else´s best. She´s good, but still a step behind the sisters....and Justine seems to have gained an edge on Kim too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
bandabou - Kim beat Serena last fall and was up 5-1 in the 3rd set in Australia. She beat Venus last year and was a set and a break up on her at Wimbledon. She leads the head-to-head against Justine and would have won a few more of those matches had she not choked.

In terms of overall game, yes, she is behind those 3 players (because of her nerves). If she were to get her mental game together, though, she could regularly beat those players - and thus be at their level or even above them (at least Justine and Venus).
 

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jenglisbe said:
bandabou - Kim beat Serena last fall and was up 5-1 in the 3rd set in Australia. She beat Venus last year and was a set and a break up on her at Wimbledon. She leads the head-to-head against Justine and would have won a few more of those matches had she not choked.

In terms of overall game, yes, she is behind those 3 players (because of her nerves). If she were to get her mental game together, though, she could regularly beat those players - and thus be at their level or even above them (at least Justine and Venus).
I don't think so jenglisbe. Venus and Juju have more talent than Kim IMHO. Kim had no nerves in Antwerp this year so what happened then?? Kim will get her victories over Serena, Juju, and Venus, but I think they will always eclipse her in the overall talent department. I think you are particularly underestimating Venus.
 

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Venus was injured during that match.. lmao.

Look man, when Venus got fixed up after that rain delay.. you saw what happened?!? Venus beat Kim's ass soundly.

Kim's game is alot like Jennifer's. She'll win a slam or two or maybe even three, but she'll never be considered an all time great. If anything I think she is gonna drop in rank next year because that retrieving style is gonna burn her out. Especially if she plays doubles and continues that crazy schedule. LOL!
 

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jenglisbe said:
My point is this - Kim can outhit anyone on any surface when she is playing well. If she could have kept her mental game together, she could have easily won 2-3 majors this year. Let's see if she can improve that aspect of her game like Justine did...
In effect, Kim is a lot like Ivan Lendl. SHe has a very high quality game, but it is what it is. She can only raise the level of her game so far. And if she's playing someone like Serena, who at her best can paint the lines with lasers, Kim is going to lose. Because pure defense can't get the job done at the highest level. It's something Tracy Austin talked about during the Open. Kim is a super-defender, but her offense if suspect. She gets into it with power players and if she starts losing, she starts hitting harder and harder, which just means more errors.

The only player on the tour who can hit winners from as far back as Kim plays is Venus. (Serena bveing virtually NEVER back that far.)

Kim's whole style gives control of the points to Venus or Serena or Justine. No matter how WELL she plays that style, she'll always be conceding control of the points. It's not a matter of getting her mental game together. It's a matter of developing her offense, and that will likely take more than one year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Dawn Marie - Kim won the first 2 games, which was before Venus was injured. She was controlling those points and playing wonderful tennis. Then after the rain delay at the end of the 1st set, Kim was again controlling play and went up a break (twice). Her nerves then hit her as she made nervous errors. She started lunging at backhands instead of stepping into them (like on the one that gave Venus the break), her forehand was going all over the place (a few easy ones into the net, that one easy one that went long). If you watch the 3-2 game from that 2nd set, Kim gave Venus the game on errors. Kim beat herself in the 2nd set, and Venus didn't have to do much of anything.
 

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Venus was injured. She was not getting blown off the court by KIM. Venus played tenative due to her injury. The first set was close. Venus spanked Kim's ass when she stopped worrying about the pain.. She did it earlier in Antwerp just blew her off the court..

Kim's game is being exposed. Justine beat her by playing aggressive tennis to Kim's defensive. Face it Justine just flat out played Kim in the final.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dawn Marie - obviously Justine outplayed Kim in the final; that's why Justine won. No one has said otherwise. What many of us are saying is that Kim choked. She didn't play the level of tennis that she had been playing to make the final. That kind of tennis was seen when Kim came back from 0-3 to lead 5-4. Kim had Justine running all over the court, and Kim was finishing with winners. When she had those 2 set points, though, her game suddenly went off the boil again.

The same thing happened in the Wimbledon SF. Kim played great tennis to lead 6-4, 3-2 and then her game went off.
 

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jenglisbe said:
Dawn Marie - obviously Justine outplayed Kim in the final; that's why Justine won. No one has said otherwise. What many of us are saying is that Kim choked. She didn't play the level of tennis that she had been playing to make the final. That kind of tennis was seen when Kim came back from 0-3 to lead 5-4. Kim had Justine running all over the court, and Kim was finishing with winners. When she had those 2 set points, though, her game suddenly went off the boil again.

The same thing happened in the Wimbledon SF. Kim played great tennis to lead 6-4, 3-2 and then her game went off.
Boy, people bitch when Serena claims she choked a match away with her own unforced errors. :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok, Venus fans keep saying Venus started playing better to win the SF and blah blah. Well, I just watched it from 3-2 in the 2nd set to 3-5, and here is the breakdown:

Kim serving at 3-2
0-15 In a neutral rally, Kim hits backhand into net (McEnroe says she "looked tight")
15-15 Venus hits return into net
30-15 Venus hits forehand into net
30-30 Kim ran Venus around, but then she hit a forehand long
30-40 Kim ran Venus around with her forehand, but then she hit a backhand into the net
game Venus barely got the serve back, and Kim hit a forehand into the net (McEnroe says she's "edgy")

Venus serving at 3-3
15-0 Kim hits a 2nd serve forehand return into the net
30-0 Venus stretched Kim, and Kim's slice went into the net
40-0 Kim hits a forehand wide
40-15 Venus hits a forehand into the net
40-30 Venus double faults
game Venus controlled rally and drew an error

Kim serving at 3-4
0-15 Neutral rally ends with Kim hiting backhand wide (Carillo says, "Clijsters has gone away")
0-30 Kim runs Venus around but hits a backhand long
15-30 good rally ends with Venus hitting a backhand long
30-30 Venus hits a backhand into the net
40-30 Kim hits a volley winner
deuce Venus hits a down the line shot, and Kim's scoop forehand is into the net
ad Venus Kim hits a slice long
deuce Kim hits a forehand winner
ad Kim Kim comes to net, and Venus hits her backhand into the net
deuce Kim hits a backhand wide (hits it late)
ad Venus Kim hits a backhand wide (McEnroe said she "lunged" at it and is "nervous looking")
game Kim runs Venus around but hits a forehand wide

As you can see, in these 3 games that changed the match, Venus didn't even hit 1 winner. Kim, meanwhile, made 12 unforced errors in those 3 games (i.e. the same number of points it takes to win 3 games). Clearly Kim lost that set as opposed to Venus winning it.
 

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jenglisbe said:
Dawn Marie - obviously Justine outplayed Kim in the final; that's why Justine won. No one has said otherwise. What many of us are saying is that Kim choked. She didn't play the level of tennis that she had been playing to make the final. That kind of tennis was seen when Kim came back from 0-3 to lead 5-4. Kim had Justine running all over the court, and Kim was finishing with winners. When she had those 2 set points, though, her game suddenly went off the boil again.

The same thing happened in the Wimbledon SF. Kim played great tennis to lead 6-4, 3-2 and then her game went off.
This is not men's tennis where one break of serve pretty much gurantees the set. At Wimby 3-2 second set there had been about 4 consecutive breaks of serve. Kim didn't choke then, Venus returned better. IF Kim was broken 3 times to level at 3all second set, she obviously wasn't serving well and neither was Venus.
The semi Justine vs Jen with all the drama pretty much sums up what each player needs to do to win. When Jen was on top, she was pinning Justine behind the baseline, when Jen backed off Justine stepped in and dictated play.
Against Justine in the final, when Kim got back from 0/3 I thought she had the match in her hand. If Jen can give Justine such a tough fight, Kim should have been able to fight harder. Although Kim's and Jen's games are similar, Kim does everything else alittle better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Venus F - That's usually because Serena gives little credit to her opponent; Kim, meanwhile, gives her opponents too much credit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
tennisfann - Did you read my breakdown of those games? It wasn't about either player serving better as neither had any aces in those games, and only Venus double faulted (and did so just once). Kim made a slew of errors, and she gave those games - and the set - away.

Your comments on Kim/Jennifer/Justine would seem to back my posts up. Kim can dictate Justine - and did so to fight back and lead 5-4 (and 15-40) in the 1st set of the Open final. Then Kim starting making a ton of errors to give away the set and the match (just like she did in the 2nd set of her Wimbledon SF).
 

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If ifs and ands were pots and pans the whole world would be a kitchen :lol: :tape: Meanwhile could you be so kind as to detail the 3rd set too ?? :eek:

P.S. Kim needs to learn how to take her game up another notch when her opponent starts playing better.
 

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what the hell is the point here???
Venus won, get over it! If Kim cant even take out an injured venus, LOL, how the hell can she otherwise...isnt being mentally tough a part of tennis? Venus, Serena, and even now justine arent the best just because they can bang a ball around
 

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jenglisbe said:
tennisfann - Did you read my breakdown of those games? It wasn't about either player serving better as neither had any aces in those games, and only Venus double faulted (and did so just once). Kim made a slew of errors, and she gave those games - and the set - away.

Your comments on Kim/Jennifer/Justine would seem to back my posts up. Kim can dictate Justine - and did so to fight back and lead 5-4 (and 15-40) in the 1st set of the Open final. Then Kim starting making a ton of errors to give away the set and the match (just like she did in the 2nd set of her Wimbledon SF).
Looks like we posted at the same time. I hadn't read your breakdown. And yes I do agree with you regarding Kim Jen and Justine. But I also think you underrate Venus. If your opponent is making error why go for the winners. Isn't that how Kim plays for most of her time. Watch her semi against Lindsay. Lindsay never used to make many mistakes but in this semi she had over 36. Reason: Kim wasn't giving her the errors she needed to stay in the match. Venus on the other hand can play both defensively and offensively.
We have also got to accept that commentators are also influenced by actions in the past or biases. They in turn influence how we see the match. Sounds from your breakdown John mcenroe and Carillo were looking to see Kim choke. Kerryn Pratt and Newcombe kept seeing how Venus was raising the bar. Venus dtl earned her alot of points and especially in the third set, against a slower player they would have been clean winners and Kim managed to get her racket on it and resulted in a higher error count for her.
 
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