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I know this is an old topic and not too worthy of discussing but I just couldn't help it as I found Alex's complaint after the FED cup very interesting. I wasn't a memeber of the board back then or I dunno if it even existed then, so hardly had anyone to talk about this with. I really felt for Lisa cuz she had been working so hard to make the cut and she was ranked no.1 in double and deserved the spot as much as anyone. I understood King's decision in a way but I think it wasn't fair to Lisa for whom the Olympics meant more than to anyone else in my opinion. It could have been her last chance to play for her country at the Olympics. I also remember Venus treatened not to play unless Serena made the doubles cut...my memory might be wrong.. I just felt sorry for Lisa.. Sorry to bring up such an old topic..
 
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gogomaggie said:
I know this is an old topic and not too worthy of discussing but I just couldn't help it as I found Alex's complaint after the FED cup very interesting. I wasn't a memeber of the board back then or I dunno if it even existed then, so hardly had anyone to talk about this with. I really felt for Lisa cuz she had been working so hard to make the cut and she was ranked no.1 in double and deserved the spot as much as anyone. I understood King's decision in a way but I think it wasn't fair to Lisa for whom the Olympics meant more than to anyone else in my opinion. It could have been her last chance to play for her country at the Olympics. I also remember Venus treatened not to play unless Serena made the doubles cut...my memory might be wrong.. I just felt sorry for Lisa.. Sorry to bring up such an old topic..
I think it's a good time to bring it up. I also wasn't a board member back then :wavey:

I followed what happened too. I recall there being some risk that if billie chose lisa over serena, then venus might not play.

there had to be some reason for billie straying from the rankings. i felt sorry for lisa, because what more could she have done? she was number one, and had been waiting for the olympics. gigi fernandez and mary-joe were chosen in 96 and 92. with both of those out, lisa (and lindsay) looked to represent the ideal team.

there was a feeling that lindsay pulled out at the last minute as a sympathy vote for Lisa.

the important thing is to learn from the mistake. billie let personal issues get in the way of making her decision. clearly it wasn't a ridiculous choice to go with serena, but it would have been less controversial and more in line with a "principled" decision.

but did she learn? well, yes in some ways. she decided she go with principles in future, but failed to take her foot off the brake with jennifer. i think she went too far is dismissing jennifer the night before the match.

but then, this weekend, showed that the team principles were abandoned again.

lisa, i think, was led to believe she'd be on the team. i think BJK assumed serena would qualify automatically as a result of being ranked higher than monica. but it didn't turn out like that, and BJK then had to do a U-turn on Lisa.

BJK's integrity was damaged by the affair, and it seems she still hasn't learned how to do this (difficult) job.
 

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"but then, this weekend, showed that the team principles were abandoned again"

Which team principles exactly are you tallking about? The principle of fielding your best team whenever possible was adhered to so i disagree with your blanket statement.


The Lisa Raymond issue was a tough call eithe rway for BJK, and thats how I felt at the time, I felt sympathy for Lisa - being the # 1 ranked doubles player, and I understood the decision as a sensible one if winning was the # 1 priority.

It was a shame that Venus and Serena didnt play more doubles outside the slams which meant they didnt have ranking, but it was as clear as daylight that they were the # 1 doubles team in the world at the time.

I recall Lindsay being injured and never thought of her as a candidate for doubles, as it was she had to pull out I think.

I personally want my team to come home with as much gold as possible at the olympics, the decision was based on that and it paid off, I dont think BJK failed at all - but I still felt sympathy for Lisa.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I dunno in tennis how important the Olympics. I think most of the pro tennis players would choose a GS title over an Olympic gold medal. I mean, playing for her nation at the Olympics meant a lot more to Lisa than anyone else. I know it's not always good and sometimes should be avoided that personal feelings are considered in deciding who is to play.. but Lisa did everything she could and how much more could she has done? No more right? She showed how much she wanted to play as part of the U.S. team more than anyone else.. I know the team Willams were the best in anyone's eyes.. but given the Olympics takes a back seat in tennis as opposed to some other sports espcially non-professional sports, I think it would of been less controvesial going in line with Lisa then none would ve been hurt....
 
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Lisa could have done more -she could have won just about every slam she entered the way venus and serena did.

She really only had a case to go at all on a technicality - that the Williams only played doubles at the grand slams.

You are sort of insinuating that to be nice to Lisa (because it meant a lot to her) that USA should have sacrificed 'certain' gold, for the possibility of it, AND your assuming olympic gold meant more to Lisa, than it would have to Venus and Serena sharing it as a sister combo - I dont think so.

I can understand your sympathy for Lisa though but I just feel BJK did the right thing.
 

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It was hard knocks for Lisa but I also think that she was only No. 1 because no good doubles players played enough (then or now) to have the proper ranking. Certainly she was No. 1 on the computer and earned it by playing week after week, but let's face it, Venus, Serena, Martina Hingis, Anna, maybe even Lin-C, are all better doubles players, but did not play enough then to get the ranking. BJK saw through the rankings and selected the best team. So, I did not really feel that sorry for Lisa. Lisa and Lin-C probably would have won just like the Williams sisters, though.
 

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We also have to remember that if BJK fielded a team out of sentiment and lost a gold medal, the USOC would have her head on a block faster than she could say "Bobby Riggs."

No one understands this better than Billie Jean.

As captain of the team, her primary responsibility is to win -- to bring home the Fed Cup and, every four years, a couple of gold medals. I don't agree with all her decisions, but then, she doesn't consult me.

The Williams sisters were not only the best doubles players, but BJK may have felt she had to court them in order to secure their cooperation in the future. Not a bad decision.
 

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Rankinks....rankings.....rankings......

When will anyone ever learn that being ranked #1 does not ALWAYS meAn that you are the BEST? How much more evidence do we need to to dispell that myth. Lisa was ranked #1 (WITH STUBBS - A NON-AMERICAN) but how good would she have been playing with another partner in the Olympics. Doesn't TEAMWORK count for anything anymore? In all of this discussion regarding Lisa, it seems that this point has been lost forever. The irrefutable (SP) fact is that a TEAM of Williams/Williams was more PROVEN that a TEAM of
Williams/Raymond
Davenport/Raymond
Seles/Raymond

Anyone care to argue this point?
 

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Helen Lawson said:
It was hard knocks for Lisa but I also think that she was only No. 1 because no good doubles players played enough (then or now) to have the proper ranking. Certainly she was No. 1 on the computer and earned it by playing week after week, but let's face it, Venus, Serena, Martina Hingis, Anna, maybe even Lin-C, are all better doubles players, but did not play enough then to get the ranking. BJK saw through the rankings and selected the best team. So, I did not really feel that sorry for Lisa. Lisa and Lin-C probably would have won just like the Williams sisters, though.
I have to disagree Venus or Serena are not better doubles players than Lisa. Lisa has great shots, textbook shots, great reflexes, she only lack great atheticism. Lisa has been able to win 3 slam titles, despite not having a such talented player like Stubbs is, Stubbs does not have anything great in particular, Stubbs strongest side could be the fact that she is a great figther, but looking closely at her groundies, she is just does not have that many great shots. Imagine if Lisa would have team with a more talented player?.

Anyway i went out of topic, imagine you being ranked number one in the world and not being choosed to play a TEAM competition, i mean it just sucks. Lisa played the whole year of doubles, had earned her rank. Anyway Olympic based, there is no a better doubles team than USA, they would have won it anyway, that´s a personal feeling. Would have been interesting have seen Venus playing with Lisa :eek: instead of her sister.
 

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I hated that decision. I still hate it. It was incredibly unfair of BJK to leave Lisa out of the team, she should had been in, she earned her place.
 

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I admit that it was a difficult decision, but I still think BJK made the wrong one.

Lisa was #1 doubles player in the world. She played and earned that. It doesn't matter if other people were more talented or whatever, they didn't play enough to be #1 and that was their choice. In doing so they missed out on the #1 ranking and consequently they should have missed out on Olympic selection.

The rules should have been a lot clearer too, and there shouldn't be one rule for the singles players and one rule for the doubles players. And BJK should have explained the situation to Lisa and everyone else a lot earlier. As a good captain would have done.
 

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Another Lisa and Olympics topic. :eek: ;)

I hated it then and hate it now. She earned it, she deserved it, she got screwed over by BJK. Geewhiz summed it up pretty nicely.
 
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geewhiz said:
I admit that it was a difficult decision, but I still think BJK made the wrong one.

Lisa was #1 doubles player in the world. She played and earned that. It doesn't matter if other people were more talented or whatever, they didn't play enough to be #1 and that was their choice. In doing so they missed out on the #1 ranking and consequently they should have missed out on Olympic selection.

The rules should have been a lot clearer too, and there shouldn't be one rule for the singles players and one rule for the doubles players. And BJK should have explained the situation to Lisa and everyone else a lot earlier. As a good captain would have done.
well, BJK counted her chickens before they had hatched. she told lisa she could play because she assumed serena would qualify for the team anyway. but when serena failed to make it whilst monica did make it, billie found herself having to go back on her word. she also told serena "no worries, you're in" a long time before that. so basically, billie had told four people they were on the team, but then because monica was ranked high enough, billie found herself having to go back on her word.

tough on lisa all round.
 

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And BJK stands by her principles so strictly when it is convenient for her! But she is nothing but a hypocrite these days! And the worst part of it is that she cannot even see it (or her feet). BJK would eat her words if she wasn't too busy eating everything else in sight! I think she mistook her Eggo for her Ego. She won't Leggo either!
 

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You either do not declare your selection rules at all, or you follow them.

I think that Team USA did the right thing by fielding the Williams sisters team at Olympics. They did the wrong thing before that, when they declared their selection rules.
 

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BJK's job as captain is to get as many medals for the USA as possible, using fair means. She had a chance, completely within the rules, to use the best doubles team in the world, and she did. And that team won the Gold medal. I can't imagine another soprt where an issue like this could hang around so long.

By the way, BJK maintains, and said before the arbitor under oath, that she did NOT promise Lisa a place on the team. And what on earth would BJK gain by telling her that?
 

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baleineau said:
well, BJK counted her chickens before they had hatched. she told lisa she could play....
Had she? Lisa says yes. BJK says no.

People very often hear what they want to hear, not what was actually said.
 

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Venus won the gold
Monica won the bronze
Venus/Serena won the gold

everything worked out
water under the bridge

so lets leave it at that
 
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