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Why that's a nice essay, but it seems like you're wrong. The court sided with the bakery.
Read the decision with greater care. The court did the equivalent of kicking the can down the road. The decision was not decided on legal merits of the appellates arguments.
 

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Read the decision with greater care. The court did the equivalent of kicking the can down the road. The decision was not decided on legal merits of the appellates arguments.
Which means there is no clear-cut case for the "discriminated" party. It is not "a simple matter".
 

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Do you want to live in the world where you are not allowed to decline writing KKK messages?
political parties, or ideologies are not covered under any civil rights statutes. Democrats, Socialists, Nazis and members of the KKK or the Lion's Club are not protected classes under any civil rights laws either federally or state statutes. I can deny you service, an apartment, or employment because you walk in with a Biden for President button.
 

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political parties, or ideologies are not covered under any civil rights statutes. Democrats, Socialists, Nazis and members of the KKK or the Lion's Club are not protected classes under any civil rights laws either federally or state statutes. I can deny you service, an apartment, or employment because you walk in with a Biden for President button.
Is there such a thing like an official "KKK message"? I don't know. What I had in mind were the racist or despicable messages we disagree with. Which are generally not ideologies or political messages.
 

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Which means there is no clear-cut case for the "discriminated" party. It is not "a simple matter".
You will have a hard time getting SCOTUS to carve out some religious exemption to federal, state, or municipal laws based on something as vague as this. There is no boundary to this get- out -of -jail free card for people who claim their 'faith' makes obeying statutes passed by a legislature and signed by a governor uncomfortable. That is why we have not had one in over 200 years.
 

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Is there such a thing like an official "KKK message"? I don't know. What I had in mind were the racist or despicable messages we disagree with. Which are generally not ideologies or political messages.
what is the protected class under either a state or federal civil rights statutes that you are protecting from discrimination when you protect my 'right 'to get I hate blacks on my cake? People with unpopular cultural beliefs is not a protected class. Bigots are not a protected class.
 

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You will have a hard time getting SCOTUS to carve out some religious exemption to federal, state, or municipal laws based on something as vague as this. There is no boundary to this get- out -of -jail free card for people who claim their 'faith' makes obeying statutes passed by a legislature and signed by a governor uncomfortable. That is why we have not had one in over 200 years.
It doesn't mean there shouldn't be one.

what is the protected class under either a state or federal civil rights statutes that you are protecting from discrimination when you protect my 'right 'to get I hate blacks on my cake? People with unpopular cultural beliefs is not a protected class. Bigots are not a protected class.
I think it's a great injustice to have segregated the society into "protected" and "unprotected" classes. In my personal opinion, nobody has the "right" to have a racist message on the cake, just as nobody has the "right" to have a gay message on the cake. The only people compelled to perform the requests of the customers should be the state workers (that's why I never defended Kim Davis). But it's interesting how quickly the mask slips in these conversations - Everyone's a bigot these days, according to someone...
 

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It doesn't mean there shouldn't be one.



I think it's a great injustice to have segregated the society into "protected" and "unprotected" classes. In my personal opinion, nobody has the "right" to have a racist message on the cake, just as nobody has the "right" to have a gay message on the cake. The only people compelled to perform the requests of the customers should be the state workers (that's why I never defended Kim Davis). But it's interesting how quickly the mask slips in these conversations - Everyone's a bigot these days, according to someone...
I am not worried about the cake, sir. I am worried about the extension of the logic. If I am a Baptist, and I have employed a man, who I later discovered is planning to marry, I cannot in good conscience be party to funding that wedding. Its a sin. I have to fire him so that I don't provide the money that goes to the license itself, let alone the wedding.
If I rent appartments, and I find out that my tenant is using the apartment for homosexual sex inconsistent with everything my pastor tells me, I have to evict him. Even if I myself, am not Baptist, but I have Baptists I do employ and they are religiously conflicted around the gay dude with the picture of his husband on his desk, I better tell him to hide it.
 

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I am not worried about the cake, sir. I am worried about the extension of the logic. If I am a Baptist, and I have employed a man, who I later discovered is planning to marry, I cannot in good conscience be party to funding that wedding. Its a sin. I have to fire him so that I don't provide the money that goes to the license itself, let alone the wedding.
If I rent appartments, and I find out that my tenant is using the apartment for homosexual sex inconsistent with everything my pastor tells me, I have to evict him.
Cake is just an example.

Why would you need to fund his wedding? Do Americans fund their employees weddings? I don't follow that logic at all.

The second example surely must depend on what the contract says and the laws. For example, if you sign the contract for one year, I would be very surprised if you could justify the eviction after three months, if everything else was fine with the flat.
 

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Cake is just an example.

Why would you need to fund his wedding? Do Americans fund their employees weddings? I don't follow that logic at all.

The second example surely must depend on what the contract says and the laws. For example, if you sign the contract for one year, I would be very surprised if you could justify the eviction after three months, if everything else was fine with the flat.
None of this is based on logic. That wedding cake has nothing to do with either the marriage license which is a formal legally binding act, or homosexual sex which is the only conduct in any of this discussed in a Bible. Its about supplying sugar and flour at a party you are not attending or advocating or endorsing. You are not writing your ideas on that cake, any more than the printers of an invitation are printing their ideas about the reception. You are writing someone else's ideas wishes and thoughts.
Likewise while you are not directly funding that wedding and license, its the wage you provide, that helps support that act, and that lifestyle that follows. Heck even without the wedding the fact you pay a homosexual is enough to help facilitate the sinful lifestyle. Even if you don't see the logic, it only takes a pastor of the local church who does, and that is where the rubber meets the road.

The majority of rentals are month to month tenentcies. But is that really the point you are getting here? you have basically blown a hole in civil rights protections the size of a canyon.
 

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None of this is based on logic. That wedding cake has nothing to do with either the marriage license which is a formal legally binding act, or homosexual sex which is the only conduct in any of this discussed in a Bible. Its about supplying sugar and flour at a party you are not attending or advocating or endorsing. You are not writing your ideas on that cake, any more than the printers of an invitation are printing their ideas about the reception. You are writing someone else's ideas wishes and thoughts.

Likewise while you are not directly funding that wedding and license, its the wage you provide, that helps support that act, and that lifestyle that follows. Heck even without the wedding the fact you pay a homosexual is enough to help facilitate the sinful lifestyle. Even if you don't see the logic, it only takes a pastor of the local church who does, and that is where the rubber meets the road.
Your twisted analogy of wage-providing doesn't hold water at all. Cake making (or book printing) is a direct service that provides a final product for the customer. It is a service. Money on the other hand is a means to exchange. The money paid is a compensation for the service provided, and it is freely spent by the employees on the services of their choice.

I think your example would be much clearer if you just said "I can fire you if I find out you're gay." I would like to live in a world where firing on the basis of sexual orientation would be illegal, but even in such a scenario, there could be some nasty loopholes. The best we can hope is that we reach a state where gay rights aren't seen as ideologically charged as they are now and simply go back to the humanistic principles of what it means to live freely and cooperatively. The public opinion however won't be swayed by disrespectful smug entitlement which is now much en vogue after marriage equality has passed.
 

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None of this is based on logic. That wedding cake has nothing to do with either the marriage license which is a formal legally binding act, or homosexual sex which is the only conduct in any of this discussed in a Bible. Its about supplying sugar and flour at a party you are not attending or advocating or endorsing. You are not writing your ideas on that cake, any more than the printers of an invitation are printing their ideas about the reception. You are writing someone else's ideas wishes and thoughts.
Likewise while you are not directly funding that wedding and license, its the wage you provide, that helps support that act, and that lifestyle that follows. Heck even without the wedding the fact you pay a homosexual is enough to help facilitate the sinful lifestyle. Even if you don't see the logic, it only takes a pastor of the local church who does, and that is where the rubber meets the road.

The majority of rentals are month to month tenentcies. But is that really the point you are getting here? you have basically blown a hole in civil rights protections the size of a canyon.
Your twisted analogy of wage-providing doesn't hold water at all. Cake making (or book printing) is a direct service that provides a final product for the customer. It is a service. Money on the other hand is a means to exchange. The money paid is a compensation for the service provided, and it is freely spent by the employees on the services of their choice.

I think your example would be much clearer if you just said "I can fire you if I find out you're gay." I would like to live in a world where firing on the basis of sexual orientation would be illegal, but even in such a scenario, there could be some nasty loopholes. The best we can hope is that we reach a state where gay rights aren't seen as ideologically charged as they are now and simply go back to the humanistic principles of what it means to live freely and cooperateively. The public opinion however won't be swayed by disrespectful smug entitlement which is now much en vogue after marriage equality has passed.
Let's take another example lest this 'religious exemption' be stuck in civil rights law. The tax code! Can you envision the motive and the breadth of rationales for a Pastor or a sect to find religious objection to paying taxes and promote a boycott of same in their congregation? Whether it is prayer in school, the procurement and use of armaments or any other social cultural issues that touches upon matters of religious faith, this will be happening and it will be popular. They just cannot be expected condone or support a state that sees itself as superior to God and his message, and they cannot be expected to endorse or validate a state sponsoring sin, godlessness and blasphemy. We have to respect and honor religious freedom from such acts as egregiously offend the church or its doctrine.

So here we go into court. The IRS vs a series of 150 defendants for tax evasion and a balancing of federal laws and religious objections thereto. The IRS brings in the statutes and the precedence from the last 30 years, and the defendants bring in a that new SCOTUS decision on religious exemption and couple of pastors and some bibles, and some in depth theological papers deciphering God's will. The judge has spent a lot of time learning to interpret statutes, and constitutional appellate opinion, but his theological interpretation skills are a tad rusty. How is he supposed to measure and quantify the level of sincere religious objection and separate it out from the greed inherent in a windfall from Uncle Sam?

This is not about the cake decorating. Its about the loophole you create to dodge the cake decorating.
 

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Let's take another example lest this 'religious exemption' be stuck in civil rights law. The tax code! Can you envision the motive and the breadth of rationales for a Pastor or a sect to find religious objection to paying taxes and promote a boycott of same in their congregation? Whether it is prayer in school, the procurement and use of armaments or any other social cultural issues that touches upon matters of religious faith, this will be happening and it will be popular. They just cannot be expected condone or support a state that sees itself as superior to God and his message, and they cannot be expected to endorse or validate a state sponsoring sin, godlessness and blasphemy. We have to respect and honor religious freedom from such acts as egregiously offend the church or its doctrine.

So here we go into court. The IRS vs a series of 150 defendants for tax evasion and a balancing of federal laws and religious objections thereto. The IRS brings in the statutes and the precedence from the last 30 years, and the defendants bring in a that new SCOTUS decision on religious exemption and couple of pastors and some bibles, and some in depth theological papers deciphering God's will. The judge has spent a lot of time learning to interpret statutes, and constitutional appellate opinion, but his theological interpretation skills are a tad rusty. How is he supposed to measure and quantify the level of sincere religious objection and separate it out from the greed inherent in a windfall from Uncle Sam?

This is not about the cake decorating. Its about the loophole you create to dodge the cake decorating.

If somebody finds a legal way to be exempt from paying taxes, I'm all for it, more power to them. ;)

In effect, I think you're describing a radical secessionist sect who does not really want to take part in the society. This is a very long shot from a common civilian simply trying to make the ends meet. It's just a completely different form of animal.
 

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If somebody finds a legal way to be exempt from paying taxes, I'm all for it, more power to them. ;)

In effect, I think you're describing a radical secessionist sect who does not really want to take part in the society. This is a very long shot from a common civilian simply trying to make the ends meet. It's just a completely different form of animal.
I know I am describing a great way for anyone to ditch their tax burden using this religious exemption. Who says it has to be consistent with more orthodox religious interpretations? Grab a guy, get him an online theology degree and exploit his newfound passion for proselytizing on the sins of the US government and you have a great gimmick under this loophole. The money comes first and the sect can follow
 

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I know I am describing a great way for anyone to ditch their tax burden using this religious exemption. Who says it has to be consistent with more orthodox religious interpretations? Grab a guy, get him an online theology degree and exploit his newfound passion for proselytizing on the sins of the US government and you have a great gimmick under this loophole. The money comes first and the sect can follow
The bad thing here is that the exemption is confined to "religion". :) Ideally one would be able to opt out due to any personal convictions. Of course the state would never allow that.
 

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The bad thing here is that the exemption is confined to "religion". :) Ideally one would be able to opt out due to any personal convictions. Of course the state would never allow that.
Actually the 'bad thing' is that you have created a fat loophole in every category of law, without any boundary or border. In effect you are undermining the concept of law as applying to everyone regardless of color or creed, as long as 'creed' is the way a clever lawyer can get you out of trouble.

Pretty much done on this topic. I will move on to another SSM topic tomorrow.
 

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Actually the 'bad thing' is that you have created a fat loophole in every category of law, without any boundary or border. In effect you are undermining the concept of law as applying to everyone regardless of color or creed, as long as 'creed' is the way a clever lawyer can get you out of trouble.

Pretty much done on this topic. I will move on to another SSM topic tomorrow.
Actually the only thing one undermines is not "law", but the law that makes us pay taxes. No, I don't see the harm. :D
 

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