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Discussion Starter #1
There have been a couple of polls recently and I've been struck by various reactions. The pols of course, are 'Martina vs Martina' and 'Venus vs Althea'. (I really should throw in Venus and Serena vs Lilian and Maud Watson. Thanks cynicole.) It's good to see Althea and Martina get votes. I sometimes think the average age of the board is so young, they've never seen Martina play, much less Althea.

I've also noticed a good deal of anger, which surprises me. If someone think an 80 year old confined to a wheelchair could beat Venus Williams, all I can say is God Bless and don't bet the money for your mother's heart operation. But I wouldn't get mad about it.

Of course, it's a bit different with Martina, since we're comparing her to an active player. But if you genuinely believe in her, why get so worked up? Venus vs Althea would have been fun, instead of lame, if Venus's opponent hadn't been chosen just for being famous and Black. Martina, after all, was NAMED for MArtina, and this is not the first time the outcome of a match between them has been the subject of speculation.

My question however is this.

Why does it MATTER?

Why does it MATTER if a bunch of people (who you feel to be wildly in error) think 45 year old Martina would beat 21 year old Martina? I should think you'd be promoting such a match so you could gamble with, and take money from, the mis-informed.

If it DOESN'T matter to you, do you know why it matters to other people?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
And to answer the inevitable, yes I've written more than one thread, on more than one board, suggesting that it was time we Venus fans stopped being so defensive. VEnus doesn't need us to protect her. She's won 4 GS titles and is the reigning Olympic Gold medalist. she doesn't really need defending.

Of course, any time a young, Black, female has a bunch of angry people attacking her, I'm going to be affected. But this is the web. There certainly are posters who threaten to physically hamr the players. (I'm sure Gunther Parche, aside from being a psycho, is a regular web presence. Jsut check out some of the posts.) But simple criticism is just that. Criticism, not some form of physical attack.

Venus is a public figure. She's also female and Black in a country that discriminates against women and Blacks. We Williams fans have to learn to deal withthat without exploding every 15 seconds.
 

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Personally I responded to the Martina vs Martina poll with some confusion, which later turned into irritations.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the thread.. it was kind of humerous really. However, I was completely baffled at people who honestly though that Martina N., would beat Hingis in this time. These are SOME of the same people who say that Martina N. shouldn't come back into singles cause she couldn't compete with the top 20 - yet they think she could beat number 4 in the world? (who would be ranked in the top 3 if not for the injury). Hingis, who beat Venus and Serena back to back this year - however the same people think Venus would have no problems with Martina N. but Hingis would?

I was just baffled at how personal bias leads people to make compete and total nonsense.

I can't speak for why everyone else reacted, but thats why I did.
 

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Wow, Volcana. Great question.

The two polls are very different as you mentioned. The Martinas poll is the only one that should be taken seriously for the reasons you mentioned above (incidentally, I had overlooked the connection between Venus and Althea. But if it was deliberate, then it was EXTREMELY TACKY and just another bad deed to add to the growing list of board problems)

What strikes me as odd is that the few Hingis fans who take offense to the poll seem oblivious to what could be viewed as their condescending attitude towards ASV. Afterall, ASV lost to Navratilova. So by being offended by even the suggestion that Hingis might lose, they're essentially writing off ASV as nothing more than a player who could lose to an inadequate, and weak tennis player.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Cheops, ASV is the most under-appreciated multiple GS champion of the open era.
 

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Neither poll should be taken seriously. The first was simply an underhanded attempt to take a swipe at a player masked in a facade of legitimacy. The second was a drunk stealing someone's favourite tactics (change the name and start a 'retaliation thread') in order to illustrate that same person's OTHER underhanded tactics. Coincidentally enough, pretty much all the people who gave very serious and honest reponses saying Navratilova would win are fans of the same two players. These poeple complain about how people "bash" their players, but yet they gain joy at any opportunity to put down someone named Hingis or Kournikova.

Maybe if they could practice what they preach the need to preach would disappear.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
dh - Is it not possible that fans of Navratilova are the one's voting for her? Fans have been known to believe some rather unlikely things.

Like that Margaret Court could beat Bobby Riggs.

Or that Billie Jean King could beat Bobby Riggs.
 

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Cheops: While I can't speak on behalf of all irritated Hingis fans who answered that poll, I can explain myself.

I most certaintly was not suggesting that ASV was just a meager tennis players - much the opposite, if not for playing in Seles and Graf's era, who knows how many slams she could have won. Anyhow..

If you had told me three weeks ago that Martina N. would beat ASV, I'd have given the same "when pigs fly" response to that. In hindsight, I'd see I was wrong.. however in a tournament situation I do not beleive that result woudl be repeated.

And I DO beleive that right now, Hingis is a better player than ASV. Whats her record against ASV? SOmething like 16-1? I'm too lazy to check.

So even if Martina N. JUST beat ASV when ASV was at her best, if Hingis played well now, I still don't think Martina N. would beat her. Thats no disrespect to ASV.
 

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Thanks for the clarification, Becca.

Hingis clearly has a superior set of current results. No one has yet to claim that ASV or Navratilova are currently better players than Hingis.

For you to be surprised that Nav. beat ASV is NOT surprising. For posters to become irritated by merely asking people what they think the outcome of a Navratilova/Hingis match up would be IS surprising. Why the anger?

It seems that the anger results from the notion that Hingis is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than Navratilova that such a question should NOT be asked. It's insulting.

That Navratilova defeated current #17 ASV makes such a question reasonable. Conversely, to be offended by such a question somehow seems to marginalize the efforts of ASV and is therefore condescending. Besides, ASV defeated Hingis this year so ASV is surely no cakewalk.

I admit that exhibition matches and tournaments are somewhat different. But would you also be offended if the poll had asked who'd win in an exhibition match?

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: Cheops ]</p>
 

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I think people would have been less offended if a Navratilova fan had asked it, instead of someone looking to extend a grudge against a player.

"Martina didn't win, Serena just choked"<br />"Martina didn't choke, Jen just beat that ass"

People tend to ask more questions when Osama Bin Laden buys ultraviolet gun scopes than when Charlton Heston does it.
 

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I see your point, but still insist that I am not marginalizing ASV's playing ability.

If the poll had said "Who would win: Venus or Martina N." I'd have thought it was equally preposterous.

I wasn't offended so much, as I was just annoyed that there were so many responses suggesting Hingis would lose. Yes, I realize I'm biased <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

That, topped by the fact, that Dawn made the poll- and is very honest about her dislike for Hings- originally made me feel like the poll in general was a slight to Hingis. Granted, she later explained why she asked it.

Anyhow... the poll was silly, as was the copy-cat poll. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 

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Discussion Starter #12
dh - You can get mad at the questioner if you want. Slapping around the respondents is just rank insecurity. Martina vs Martina has been debated for years. Regardless of WHY the thread was started, people participate because Martina vs her namesake is a cool idea.

And with Martina N. playing better than any of us really believed possible, and Martina H. being way off-form, (You can't possibly argue it's been a good year by Hingis standards) the idea suddenly has new life. Especially since its the off season, and we have no tennis to watch.

You can choose to interpret all this as a hate conspiracy against Martina Hingis. It would require clinical paranoia, but you could.

Right now, all you're accomplishing is motivating people to hammer Martina or Monica the next time they lose. As a form of retaliation at you. If that's your purpose, you're doing a good job.
 

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Attacking Dh, will not reflect the attention from your rather obvious reasoning for this thread or the original. It seems you are not happy with slagging Hingis off at every chance, but are now attempting to manipulate emotions between Hingis/Navratilova fans and Hingis/Navratilova/Sanchez-vicario fans. The lack of responses show a large amount of the board are aware of your motives. I suggest it is time for you to change tactics, because these ones have become just a touch too blatant.
 

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Ok, Becca. Now I see. And DH, I get your point, too, although I agree with Volcana that you could appear to be partly shooting the messenger if this is a widely debated topic. Thank you both.

The irony of all of this is that the exhibition match was done in fun yet we are arguing about it. Are we a sensitive bunch or what?

I'm sure both ASV and Navratilova enjoyed themselves. So I'm going to try to have more fun, too (although I wasn't upset by any of this--just puzzled).
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Perhaps, Adrian, a different thread would be a more appropriate venue. Let's try it.
 

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Why does it MATTER?

Because Hingis is injured, she's going through a major slump and she's losing to many other players she usually wasn't losing. Remember this is her WORST year since she was a 15 year old.

-------------

Let's empathise, imagine we're back in early 2000, when Venus was still slamless and she was out with injury and everyone was suggesting she should retired. What if someone posted a poll saying Graf vs. V.Williams right now who will win?

You don't think yourselves or a few other Williams fans would be bothered with such a thread? Well? Try thinking about this for a second....

The poll was just plain insensitive and every Hingis fan has the right to feel angry or annoyed.
 

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Hi

All I wanted to say (in a non-negative way) that Arantxa has in no way been playing like a world number 17 since Roland Garros onwards....

Yes Martina beat her and she played well against her (and Seles) but that victory isn't totally valid to me, as Seles has been in her best form since her return from injury and defeated Martina in 2 tight sets

Arantxa who we ALL know hasn't been playin well of late lost to Martina in 3 tight sets on an indoor surface (her worst)

I just wouldnt get excited that Martina beat Arantxa as Arantxa is not the player we know she is at the moment....

But still well done Martina <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 

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Many of you in this topic are making my ass laugh out loud <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Sorry if that Poll offended Hingis fans... I have always stated that she has a great game. I don't HATE Hingis, if I did then I wouldn't of run after her at the US Open in 2000.

In my opinion my Poll was a logical question especially since Martina N. has been playing pretty well. Naturally Martina N and baby Martina H are always gonna be linked together in the tennis world. If not for namesake only.

By the way Navratalova is leading in the Poll by a wide margin. So I must not be the only one who sees Martina N as a future threat.

Note: Just because Hingis is ranked#4 doesn't mean that Martina N couldn't win a match from her. A #4 player can play like a bottom 20 on any given day.

Oh.. by the way Disposable Hero.. you know I still love you. Everything in your post reminded me of you. Smooches <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> and huggies to you.
 

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I don't understand why Hingis fans were getting so worked up over that poll either.

I like both Martinas a lot - in fact would say that I am a fan of both. But I still maintain that were Martina Hingis to play Martina Navratilova on a grasscourt Navratilova would have a very good chance to win. But that Hingis would win on all other surfaces.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Sam L - No it wouldn't bother me. It DIDN'T bother. I was there. Venus vs Steffi was a matchup debated more than once. And while a small but vocal group of Venus haters actually suggested Venus retire, there was no way you could take those people seriously.

If Venus and Steffi had played when Venus was still Slamless I'd have answer 'Graf' without a second thought. Steffi won the French in 1999. Venus won her first Slam in 2000. So this would have been a match between a reigning GS champ, and a player who had never won a Slam.

One other thing. I saw the entirety of Maretina Navratilova's career, at least as you could through television and newspapers. I know how good she was. The idea that Martina Navratilova at 45 could beat a 21 year old is not far-fetched. For any other 45 year, the idea is absurd. Not this one.

It could be differences in our opinion of Navratilova that are driving this dispute, actually.
 
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