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Seriously.

I was kind of blown away by how harsh you were after OZ. I mean, the girl played that little body into the ground. And the opposition isn't giving her the options they gave her in 1997. How much humiliation did you expect them to endure without changing? The pre-dominant style of play on the tour now is as much a reaction to 'How do you beat Martina Hingis?' as it is to anything else. That's sports. In a couple years, the tour will solve Venus too. It's a rare rare player the tour doesn't catch up with. In the Open era, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova, taken as a set. Monica. Steffi, if you consider only Monica actually caught up to her.

As you've told me (in previous, un-named guises) she's young! She's only 21 years old. It's pains me to see one of the more articulate Hingis fans cash in your chips this way. From OZ '97 through OZ '98, Martina was basically untouchable. For the next two years, she was merely better than everyone else. Now she a mere top five player. In her case, yes, this represents slippage, I cancede that. But if you're gonna punt, at least wait for the French! Venus, Serena and Lindsay all have bad wheels, and Martina can take Jenn or Monica on clay.

Be disgusted during grass court season. It's too short anyway.
 

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Volcana, I can say that the Australian Open was the drop that filled the glass. I can't blame her for losing, but I can blame her for not putting heart on it, and I can blame her for not being able to realize her real potential.

Making history, after FO 99 she lost in Wimbledon in the first round to a player ranked outside the top 100 (no matter what that player achieved later on, at that time was a very inexperienced player). Did she have reasons to be like that? yes, but that showed a very weak personality IMO.

Then she had a succesful come back, beat Venus to win San Diego and won the Canadian Open, then US Open losing to Serena, yes, Serena played well, yes maybe Serena would have won anyways but Martina wasn't even trying.

Then five loses in a row to Davenport, I didn't see all the matches but in some of them again, she wasn't trying, she had lost the match before it started.

US Open against Venus 5-3 up in the third, two points away, you simply can't lose a match like that, if you are a real champion.

Then 2001, after a promising start, she went to play the AO final understimating Capriati, she didn't put a fight and lost easily, after that, her year was over, the rest of the year she didn't play like a top 5 player.

FO against Capriati was pathetic,she was smiling, like resigned to lose before the match started. I very much prefer the spoiled brat that smashed her racquet than a "mature" Martina that accepts loses so graciously. For a true champion a lose must be a tragedy, she has to cry, to be angry when she loses. One said that Capriati or Venus want it more, that's true.

And now against Capriati, how on earth can you be up 4-0 in the second set, having won the first and lose the match? there are no excuses for that unless she was injured, that she wasn't. It's 3 years without a slam, it's 7 GS finals she lost.

When will I believe on her again? when she wins a Grand Slam, when I see her with the trophy, until them, nothing.
 

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What matters is that Martina now believes in herself again. Fingon's belief in Martina will play no role. I never have stopped believing in Martina. And Fingon you don't need to give me your schpiel on how you determine your favorites. Your logic makes sense to me and I don't mind your views at all. :D Justine is your new fave and is also losing lots of matches to the same people over and over and has choked many matches against Kim and Venus and Monica. I like both Justine and Martina and believe Justine will start winning some tournaments this year just like Martina has already done.
 

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fingon, I don't think Hingis or any other player really mourns over loses like the fans do. I heard a story once from a reporter who travels with my local football team the Pittsburgh Steelers. He said on the plane home after a road game you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the way the players act if the won or lost. They take it like professionals which they are. They can't get to high from a win or low from a loss (unless it's the damn AFC Championship on your home field when you are 9 point favorties but I digress). There always is next week, the next practice it's not healthy for players to get to high or low and the fans maybe need to do the same.
 

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There is a big difference treufreund.

Justine is having only her second full year in the tour, not by age but in terms of experience, she is the less experienced in the top 10, she is losing matches, but she actually overachieved last year reaching the Wimbledon, FO semis, final and beating Venus and Capriati.

And more important, Justine tries, she goes for it, she can make tons of UE, tons of df but that's because she goes for it, she always says she feel unhappy on the court when she can't play aggressively.

Martina on the other, although only two years older, has been in the tour for nearly 7 and a half years. I see players (no names) technically less blessed than her that make their way to the top by heart and courage. She has the gift but just doesn't want to use it, and after 3 years, the only way I will believe again, as I said, is when I see her holding a GS trophy. (singles, doubles doesn't count)
 

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Well I totally agree with Fingon ...... we know that Hingis is more than capable to reach another GS finals! She reached many many ones in the last 3 years! But each one of those finals ended the same way .... Hingis giving up the fight in the last set!!! I willl believe in her ability to win a slam again the day she will lift a GS trophee again.....
 

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jrj, tennis is different to team sports, in tennis (in singles anyways) the player is on her own, it all depends on her.

I don't pretend Martina to jump off a building when she loses, or to be one week crying, and she could smile whatever she liked when she loses if she was actually winning something.

but a player like her needs to get angry at herself, needs to hate losing, look at Capriati, probably after she leaves the court when she loses she is fine with it, but while she is inside the court, she gets really upset, she hates it. Look at Venus, she is calmer, she won't show too much emotion but, you can say by her face, she really hates losing. Martina used to, not anymore, it's like she find it ok to lose all the time, it's like she is resigned to it, that way she is not going to win a GS final again.
 

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Fingon what do you mean you want Hingis to go for it?
 

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Fingon I think Martina is sort of content to rest on her past accomplishments and also she is afraid, very afraid of the top power hitters. If she works at it she can overcome her fear, but I don't think it will do her any good ... the game has changed :rolleyes:
 

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Fingon

My tennis teacher said it once to me, a long time ago:

"In a match The player who wins is not the player that CAN win
but the player that think he can win"

I hope it makes sense in English.

I think it happened with Martina almost times.
She could win some matches, like Venus US Open 2000 and
Aussie 2002,2001, but she thougth she can't win, she didn't believe in herself and her opponents thougth they can win.
 

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[email protected] that's precisely why Fingon is not pleased with Martina. She is not believing in herself and is not trying her best.
 

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[email protected] that's precisely why Fingon is not pleased with Martina. She is not believing in herself and is not trying her best.
She lost some belief but that was inevtibale. There is much more depth and mor eplayers that can challenge Hingis now(all the top5) , and others (5-10) that can beat her on occassions...the game has just really improved! So , YES , she as lost belief in the fact she had an aura of invincibility in 97 ,and some of 98...but she is DEFINATELY giving it her all and trying her best!

She played her gutts out in the Aus Open final and i dont see why people just aren't congtraulting Capriati on a well fought win rather than saying how bad Marti's loss was.
 

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Perhaps Martina's accomplishments have spoiled some of her fans a little too much. She gave you too much of a good thing very early on and now anything below a blindingly flawless performance is simply not good enough. If you were in her position, perhaps you'd have a right to be mad at yourself. But you're not... So please don't take Martina Hingis for granted. Enjoy what she has to offer you right now. Us fans may only be blessed with her presence in the professional tennis world for about another 10 years max. And boy, will the years fly by. Don't miss a minute of her while concerning yourself about things you cannot control.
 

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Excellent post Alysius!

Also it is hard for Hingis to go for her shots because she is not a power player. She has to set up her points and when your playing a power player then it really depends on if the power player gets the ball in or not. Those crucial points really are in the hands of a powerful hitter then anyone with finesse. At least in my opinion.
 

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Hey Fingon,
if you gave up on Martina, you've never been a REAL Hingian...
 

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Again some people still think that all the problem are the power players, I never agreed with that and there are facts that support that.

Just look at Martina in 2001:

Sydney: beat Serena, Kim and Lindsay, 3 power player, were they all having an off day?

Australian Open: Venus and Serena

Indian Wells: Kim, ok

Key Biscayne: Venus, ok

Amelia Island: Arantxa Sanchez Vicario, last time I checked she wasn't a power player, nevermind her struggle against Bianka Lamade.

Family Circle Cup: Capriati, yes, a power player but on clay.

Berlin and Rome: Amelie Mauresmo, ok

French Open: read FCC.

Wimbledon: nevermind :eek:

San Diego, LA: Monica, ok power player

US Open: Serena, again power player

Moscow: Elena Dementieva, power player.

It's of course inevitable that most of her losses will be to power players since the majority of players are power hitters, but she has lost to non-power players as well, Arantxa, Conchita, she has struggled to players that can't blow her out the court.

Remember Rita Grande? she is a player who has never found consistency to reach the top, but at the Australian Open she showed how a finesse player has to play a power player. It's laughable that a player ranked outside the top 20 can give the top finesse players a lesson on how to play a power player, imagine that strategy that troubled Capriati so much, but applied by a player with Martina's ability.

Those who say she simply can't do that because of the power are plain wrong, and have never seen a Martina match properly, when she wanted to, against Capriati, Monica, Venus or Serena, she was able to play her game, that theory that when the power players are on are invincible is a myth, that idea that Martina can only win when they miss is false, in fact when she did beat them is when she has gone for her shots, playing her own game. Some times a power player starts missing, but it's out of frustration, because the ball comes back in a way they can't control it. But I've seen many Martina's matches in the past two years, where she just tried to outhit her opponent, returning every ball to the middle of the court, and that is not because she can't manage the power,but because she doesn't believe she can.

Finally, I don't expect her to be as dominant as she was in 1997, that would be to live in a fantasy world, but I do pretend her to be up to her potential, and not winning a GS in three years, losing four times in a row to Jennifer, wasting a 4-0 lead in a second set of a GS final are not living up to her potential.
 

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Well, Fingon.. I think you are right about her confidence.

She used to be really good at what she does because she believes in it, and she shows that through her attitude..
but.. do you really want her to be a brat again?

You and I might not mind that, but how about other tennis fans who have given her such a rough time for being a brat.
Do you want to see her being booed because she does not like to lose?

Even now.. being gracious is still not enough to win people's heart.. they still give her a hard time..

I know exactlly how you feel about Martina right now..
but I would not give up on her..
I like to watch her play no matter what the results are.
I'm just a fan, and there is nothing I can do to make her win her matches. Like one of you said that we are not Martina.
We don't know what she's thinking or feeling.

I just like to wish her the best!

We love you, Martina!
 

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Well I guess this question begs to be answered.
If Martina finds herself in a similar situation as Oz, will she be able to close it out?

I for one don't think she is as mentally strong as she was in 1997. For all her "great results" of this year I still don't see how she has had a real test other than Capriati (no disrespect to Monica and Kim). Maybe I'll get my answer at Miami.
 
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