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Discussion Starter #1
If the seedings do hold at the Linz event, Henin and Dokic will meet in the semifinals. Since they have never played before, who do you pick to win the match? and why?

I'll pick Dokic in three, because I figure the fast indoor surface will rob Justine of the time she needs to Tee off on her groundies. The surface suits Jelena better in my opinion.
 

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Although my opinion can be biased (see my signature <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) I totally disagree.

I believe Justine has more resources, and I really don't understand why people (including our beloved Chris Evert) think that Justine needs more time to set up her groundstrokes, hello???, she was runner-up at Wimbledon that last time I checked was played on grass. She won Rossmalen on grass as well.

The assumption that to hit a single-handed backhand you need a big swing and hence more time is just plain wrong.

You can to see how Justine hits the backhand, and she really doesn't need a big swing, she can hit winners with very short swings as it's mostly the shoulder turn what gives that shot it's power.

In fact, a correct single handed backhand needs LESS time and not more, if you look at the winners at Wimbledon you have a big percentage of single-handed backhand.

I have seen both, Dokic and Justine in person. Dokic is a good player who has improved a lot in the past few months, but she is still very one-dimensional, she has good groundstrokes, but when that doesn't get the job done, she has no alternatives and despite her recent tournament wins, she still has to beat a top 5 player (ok, she beat Hingis in 99). Justine has beaten Venus, Capriati and Kim, 3 out of the current top 5 players.

More important, Justine has much more options, the backhand is a big weapon, but she also has a good forehand, can come to the net, can hit slice (that some times is more lethal than the topspin), etc.

Dokic IMO doesn't have enough power to overpower Justine as Davenport, Venus or Serena, and if she doesn't, how is she gonna beat her?

I definitely favour Justine on this one (if both get that far)
 

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If Jelena's serve is like in the final match with Lindsay, Justine will win, If don't Jelena has great chances because she is playing very well.

I like both players, I can't decide for one of them.
 

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At least one of them won't make it to the semis.. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 

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I think it should be Henin. Justine is very resourceful and seems to know how to handle pace. Becuase Dokic doesn't hit as hard as Davenport, or the Willamses, she should be able to handle Dokic.

Though you never know, Dokic has notched some good wins and is confident right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
There are several types of backhands Fingon, and Justine has a very big windup on hers, its only shorter when she is pressed. Justine did reach the finals of Wimbledon, but the truth is that we do not have any top ranked serve and volley players anymore, who used to rule Wimbledon. So basically Wimbledon is now a tournament that can be won by any well rounded baseliner, because not many are coming in.

The one handed backhands that you speak of winning Wimbledon titles in the past were mostly slice backhands, the only exception is Conchita Martinez. Justine can slice, but prefers to slam her backhand. The only 2 players that rushed her were Lisa Raymond, who came in constantly, and Venus, whose pace and speed of shot rushed Justine, any other match and Justine could just rally away.

In closing, a backhand like that of Catarina Lindqvist was a strong one, but without the big wind up ... it was very Lendl-like. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 

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Jelena beat Venus in her second tournament after a 6 months lay off.

I do acknowledge the victory over Amelie but Amelie wasn't top five at that point.

She did beat Kim, that was a good win.

Anyways beating the same number of top players doesn't mean that she is "as good", I mentioned that as ONE of the factors, not the only reason.

The one-dimensional game versus the variety are the main reasons, specially because Jelena doesn't have the power of Lindsay and the Williams sisters, and doesn't have a huge weapon as Justine's backhand.
 

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I'm pretty skeptical on either of them making it that far.

Dokic has been playing like crazy these past few weeks and she really went down in the Zurich final against Davenport. It got really bad towards the end of that one. IMHO, I thought Davenport played much better in Filderstadt and Dokic was simply gifting too many of those points away.

Henin had a hard enough time reaching the Filderstadt final (granted, everyone wants that Porsche) and it was the first time she got past a quarterfinal indoors (then again, look what she did on grass this year). I was amazed that she only lost by a break per set and played very well under the circumstances (certainly stayed with Davenport better than Dokic did). But that first serve percentage of hers could sometimes be her undoing. I've only seen parts of the Moscow match and the Filderstadt final (bad tv coverage) but it doesn't seem like she's been tapping that varied arsenal of hers as much as she could. No "A Game" going on.

This match is a toss-up and depends on how fit they'll be if they do meet eachother.

BTW - I think Fingon's right about the whole wind-up thing. I myself didn't notice it till the other week when I taped the Filderstadt final and watched it over again, rewinding at will. (Lots of people, myself included, make or have made this big misjudgement it seems.) Funny you never hear about Lindsay Davenport taking big backswings. Maybe it looks bigger when you're small?

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: cynicole ]</p>
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Originally posted by Fingon:<br /><strong>

The one-dimensional game versus the variety are the main reasons, specially because Jelena doesn't have the power of Lindsay and the Williams sisters, and doesn't have a huge weapon as Justine's backhand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree, Justine has to set up her points before she can hit a forehand/backhand winner, but Jelena is capable of hitting a winner off of both sides at anytime without warning ... it does not matter if it is struck as hard as the Big Babes, its hard enough.
 

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I consider Justine as the big favourite. She's mentally stronger and has the better all-round game of the two players.

Justine's only big problem is her first serve, if she can get it better, other big names will go down I assure you.
 

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Jelena is an extremely underrated player and that works to her advantage.

The Henin backhand is overrated. It's a lovely technical shot to watch but in terms of it's power and ability to frustrate opponents, it's not all that spectacular.

Sure she has the beautiful technique, but Jelena can win just as many pts on hers without the fancy strokes.

Mentally stronger? Didn't Henin waste 4 match points against Schett?

I think Justine is very vulnerable mentally right now and Dokic is full of confidence. She hits just as hard, serves just as well, moves just as good and has the confidence and mental strength to outlast her opponent.

Jelena's an incredibly underrated player and I'm sure she likes it that way.
 

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I like Dokic, and I will have my support for her!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
 

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Big Lindsay, I believe you haven't seem Justine, she doesn't have a big swing.

And she hits the slice as much or more than the topspin, she wins many points with it.

Saying that she got to the finals of Wimbledon because there are not more serve and volleyers does not make sense, if that the case, there are not serve and volleyers in Linz, so, I mentioned Wimbledon to demonstrate that she can play in a fast surface against today's player. If you use the argument of the lack of serve and volleyers then, your argument that Linz is fast is not valid. Why would it apply to Wimbledon and not to here? my point is, can she play and win on a fast surface? the answer is obviously yes.

Also, Justine can hit winner out of nowhere, much more than Jelena, I have seen both players and yes, Jelena can hit winners occassionally without setup, but off the backhand, Justine hits a lot of winner with the first shot.

I luvjelena, you should get a few facts right

The Henin backhand is overrated. It's a lovely technical shot to watch but in terms of it's power and ability to frustrate opponents, it's not all that spectacular.<hr></blockquote><br />really? McEnroe said it's the best shot in both, women and men's tennis.<br />ability to frustrate opponents? do you mean she is a counterpuncher? have you ever seen a match? we are not talking about Amanda Coetzer, or Martina Hingis. When Justine hits the topspin backhand, the points is normally over, and Justine always tries to shorten points, if something, sometimes she goes for too much.

It's interesting how in your opinion any player that faces Jelena is overrated, yet, Jelena has won tournaments with weak fields but when faced to the real challenge (Lindsay, Monica) she got crushed.

Sure she has the beautiful technique, but Jelena can win just as many pts on hers without the fancy strokes.<hr></blockquote> really? I thought Jelena's best shot was the forehand, I've seen her and she doesn't win as many points, I guess you don't even know Jelena's game.

Mentally stronger? Didn't Henin waste 4 match points against Schett?<hr></blockquote>

You really need to get your facts right, that's simply NOT true, Schett was up 6-2 and Justine levelled to 6-6, it was Schett who wasted 4 match points.

And Dokic isn't as mentally strong, didn't she choke badly at the French Open?

I agree that Justine has problems in that sense, but that's normally a player against players like Venus, Serena or Lindsay.

I think Justine is very vulnerable mentally right now and Dokic is full of confidence. She hits just as hard, serves just as well, moves just as good and has the confidence and mental strength to outlast her opponent.<hr></blockquote>

Well, if you are happy for Jelena serving "as well", well, you then you expect very little from Jelena, Justine serves literally sucks so, if Jelena serves "as well" then her serve sucks. she has the confidence to outlast her opponent? ask Davenport.

Big Lindsay, aren't you confusing Justine with Amelie?
 

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Dokic in three. Henin has played poorly since Wimbledon. The only thing that could cost Jelena is being tired. She has played so much tennis recently. While Justine hasn't played much at all.

P.S. - By the way, Dokic has won 2 tier one tournaments this year. Where are Henin's? For all her natural talent, Justine didn't win any important tournaments this year.

P.P.S. - Fignon, it's nice to see you again! Didn't you used to post " I watch tennis because of Martina Hingis and because of Elena Dementieva's legs"?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Originally posted by Fingon:<br /><strong>Big Lindsay, I believe you haven't seem Justine, she doesn't have a big swing.

And she hits the slice as much or more than the topspin, she wins many points with it.

Saying that she got to the finals of Wimbledon because there are not more serve and volleyers does not make sense, if that the case, there are not serve and volleyers in Linz, so, I mentioned Wimbledon to demonstrate that she can play in a fast surface against today's player. If you use the argument of the lack of serve and volleyers then, your argument that Linz is fast is not valid. Why would it apply to Wimbledon and not to here? my point is, can she play and win on a fast surface? the answer is obviously yes.

Also, Justine can hit winner out of nowhere, much more than Jelena, I have seen both players and yes, Jelena can hit winners occassionally without setup, but off the backhand, Justine hits a lot of winner with the first shot.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You can believe that I have not seen Justine play before, but do not bet your house on it old friend (LOL). We simply disagree on everything here, I still say Justine has a big wind up, and that she usually hits out on the backhand, as opposed to slicing it.

Justine hit more slice backhands against Lindsay because she had to, less time to hit the big back swing. As for Henin reaching the Wimbledon final, what I mean't was since the serve and volleyer is virtually extinct, Wimbledon is played mostly from the baseline in the womens matches, if Justine played Wimbledon when players like Navratilova, Novotna, Shriver, Mandlikova and Sukova were at thier peaks ... Henin would not be in the final.

Look at the people Henin beat to win the Heineken Trophy, Dechy, Bovina, Tulyaganova and Clijsters, I bet you could have counted the number of passing shots Justine had to hit on one hand. Anyways, I hope you see my point Fingon, you don't have to agree ... just see it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
 

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Originally posted by the cat in the hat:<br /><strong><br />P.S. - By the way, Dokic has won 2 tier one tournaments this year. Where are Henin's? For all her natural talent, Justine didn't win any important tournaments this year.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote>

Someone who says this doesn't know much about tennis... Reaching a semi-final at RG and a final at Wimbledon is IMHO much better then winning a tier one.
 
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