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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
No, I don't mean her shoulders when she faces even a little adversity

The chart shows 2002 and 2003

GREENs are top opponents. Williams, Davenport, Clijsters post-US Open 2002, Henin-Hardenne 2003

REDs are a notch below that. Rubin, Mauresmo, Capriati, Hantuchova, Myskina

Code:
[u]2002[/u]     
-------------- -- - -------------- ----- -----------------
Tokyo          16 L KREMER         (LUX) 5-7 2-6   
[color=GREEN]Paris          FR L V. WILLIAMS    (USA) w/o[/color]
Antwerp        16 L SCHNYDER       (SUI) 6-4 4-6 1-1 Ret  
Indian Wells   32 L KREMER         (LUX) 3-6 0-6   
Miami          32 L KREMER         (LUX) 3-6 1-6   

[b][i]Sarasota       CH W PANOVA         (RUS) 6-2 6-2[/b][/i]

[color=RED]Amelia Island  SF L HENIN-HARDENNE (BEL) 2-6 1-4 Ret[/color]
Charleston     32 L PISTOLESI      (ISR) 1-6 3-6   
[color=RED]Hamburg        SF L CLIJSTERS      (BEL) 4-6 4-4 Ret[/color]
[color=RED]Berlin         16 L HANTUCHOVA     (SVK) 2-6 3-6[/color]
[color=RED]Rome           16 L MYSKINA        (RUS) 7-5 4-6 3-6[/color]
Strasbourg     FR L FARINA ELIA    (ITA) 4-6 6-3 3-6   
[color=RED]Roland Garros  QF L CAPRIATI       (USA) 4-6 6-4 1-6[/color]

[color=BLUE][b][i]Birmingham     CH W MYSKINA        (RUS) 6-2 6-3[/b][/i][/color]

Eastbourne     16 L BEDANOVA       (CZE) 4-6 6-1 2-6   
[color=RED]Wimbledon      16 L HANTUCHOVA     (SVK) 4-6 5-7[/color]
[color=GREEN]Stanford       QF L DAVENPORT      (USA) 2-6 2-6[/color]
[color=GREEN]San Diego      FR L V. WILLIAMS    (USA) 2-6 2-6[/color]
[color=RED]Los Angeles    SF L RUBIN          (USA) 0-6 2-6[/color]
[color=RED]Canadian Open  SF L CAPRIATI       (USA) 6-7 0-4 Ret[/color]

-------------- -- - -------------- ----- -----------------

For some reason, this is where it started to go wrong for Jelena

-------------- -- - -------------- ----- -----------------


U.S. Open      64 L BOVINA         (RUS) 3-6 2-6   
Bahia          SF L MYSKINA        (RUS) 2-6 4-6   
[color=GREEN]Tokyo          SF L CLIJSTERS      (BEL) 7-5 2-6 3-6[/color]
Leipzig        16 L SHAUGHNESSY    (USA) 2-6 4-6   
Moscow         16 L COETZER        (RSA) 6-7 6-3 3-6   
Stuttgart      16 L PANOVA         (RUS) 6-1 4-6 1-6   
Zurich         16 L STEVENSON      (USA) 6-7 6-4 5-7   
[color=RED]Linz           QF L RUBIN          (USA) 5-7 2-6[/color]
[color=GREEN]Tour Champs    QF L S. WILLIAMS    (USA) 6-7 0-6[/color]
-------------- -- - -------------- ----- -----------------

[u]2003[/u] 
Tokyo          QF L RAYMOND        (USA) 4-6 2-6   
Paris          QF L DANIILIDOU     (GRE) 1-6 3-6   
Antwerp        32 L SUGIYAMA       (JPN) 5-7 7-5 3-6   
Scottsdale     16 L SHAUGHNESSY    (USA) 4-6 2-6   
Indian Wells   64 L RITTNER        (GER) 1-6 7-5 3-6   
[color=GREEN]Miami          QF L CLIJSTERS      (BEL) 2-6 0-6[/color]
Sarasota       32 L SUAREZ         (ARG) 3-6 3-6   
[color=GREEN]Charleston     QF L S. WILLIAMS    (USA) 2-6 2-6[/color]
Amelia Island  16 L RAYMOND        (USA) 3-6 7-6 2-6   
[color=RED]Warsaw         SF L MAURESMO       (FRA) 5-7 2-6[/color]
Berlin         16 L TULYAGANOVA    (UZB) 6-4 2-6 6-7   
Rome           64 L MARTINEZ       (ESP) 4-6 6-3 5-7   
Strasbourg     16 L SPREM          (CRO) 5-7 6-1 3-6   
Roland Garros  64 L PISNIK         (SLO) 6-4 3-6 2-6   
Vienna         QF L SUAREZ         (ARG) 6-7 2-6   
Eastbourne     32 L OBATA          (JPN) 3-6 1-6   
Wimbledon      32 L SHARAPOVA      (RUS) 4-6 4-6   
Stanford       QF L VENTO-KABCHI   (VEN) 4-6 3-6   
San Diego      xx

From clay season 2002 thru the USOpen, she only lost to realy quality opponents. Then the roof fell in. She's not getting deep enough into tournaments to lose to elite players.
 

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Its no secret that she playing bad this year, and the fact her biggest win is against Dementieva, says more about Elena the Jecca
 

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shes bound to snap out of it sooner or later, im thinking soon. Shes been changing up her game and her life off court has also changed alot the past year; so shes developing as a player and person(maturing)...i think shes just in a transitional phase, and shell be fine by 2004.
 

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i agree, in 2004 jelena will have a much better year. i'm not sure how much better in-terms of results and ranking but i'm really sure that she will be playing top quality tennis. but this year a few youngsters have picked things up and are catching the top players especially the lower half of the top 10 while jelena isn't improving at all so when she does get back to her best she might be caught by the young players and may not get the really great results. but hopefully she can get some great results in the future.
 

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Gowza said:
i agree, in 2004 jelena will have a much better year. i'm not sure how much better in-terms of results and ranking but i'm really sure that she will be playing top quality tennis. but this year a few youngsters have picked things up and are catching the top players especially the lower half of the top 10 while jelena isn't improving at all so when she does get back to her best she might be caught by the young players and may not get the really great results. but hopefully she can get some great results in the future.
With what weapons?
I see new players rising like mushrooms, and they all have some sort of weapon.
Sharapova has power, angles, athleticism, a good serve.
Bovina can overpower nearly anyone when she's on, and has a great serve.
Harkleroad has variety, clean volleys, and a great pair of legs.
Pennetta has real potential because of her power from the back of the court, her touch and feel, her big spins, and her speed.

But what does Dokic have exactly?
She hits kind of medium paced shots, not nearly as hard as the Williamses, Clijsters or Davenport.
Her serve is crap.
She can put away an easy volley, but still, she doesn't have the clear instinct at the net like Raymond or Henin-Hardenne.
Variety? Nah-uh. None.
Consistency or the capabilty to get 100's of shots back? No, she's error-prone and isn't extremely fast like Clijsters, the Williamses or for instance Coetzer or Pistolesi.

Seriously, you tell me....
 

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"She hits kind of medium paced shots"

I stopped reading there.
 

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bmxbandit said:
"She hits kind of medium paced shots"

I stopped reading there.
Good for you!
You keep praying for good results, you! Vamos! :D :wavey:

Oh yea, expect Rubin to humiliate and embarras Dokic by giving her a tennislesson later on!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I have to admit I don't see any signs that this is 'transitional'. Her tennis is unimaginative, uninspired and unproductive.

Look at her last eight tournaments.
Look at who beat her.

Then remember a) she's healthy. and b) she was ranked #4 in the past 12 months.

Actually, I disagree with myself. This may be transitional. What it isn't is transitory. That is, this isn't a temporary phase and she'll soon return to a level of play commensurate with the #4 ranking. She's transitioning into a new part of her life, and what she'll be as a player is a matter to be determined.

Without as much influence from her Dad, she may not be a top ten player. In many ways, he was the iron and the will in her game, such as it was. We've seen this before. A few years ago Mary Pierce very quietly began working with Jim Pierce again. It was true he was abusive and out-of-control during her teen yeras, but he also was the one who developed her game and knew it best.

When these players are children, the Dad comes on court with the Coach. Once they grow up, the Dad and coach have to seperated, and sometimes it isn't that easy.

Makes you wonder how Svengali Machiavelli Rasputin Richard Williams managed to NOT micro-manage his daughters into adulthood.
 

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Glenn, she use to hit really hard before that coach made her put top spin on all her shots. but anyway i just said she would have a better year in 2004 and would be playing better. playing better has nothing to do with her opponents and by playing better a player is most likely going to have a better year. calm down it's not like i said she would be top 5 or anything, in fact i didn't even say she would be top 10 or ranked anywhere.
 

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Glenn said:
But what does Dokic have exactly?
She hits kind of medium paced shots, not nearly as hard as the Williamses, Clijsters or Davenport.
Apart from this, Glenn and Volcana are spot on. Jelena is actually one of the hardest hitters out there, but is also the classic case of power NOT being the only thing which matters: she pummels her groundstrokes to either side of the court over and over again, with very little in the way of tactics or variety or anything other than sheer pace. She is very, very easy to figure out even when she's not committing errors, and I'd back any reasonably fit player who can cope with pace against her.

I also agree with Volcana re: Dokic's daddy issues.

Gowza, I don't know if you were thinking straight, but your last post was incredibly stupid.
 

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It's not about me bmxbandit, it's about Jelena and you not willing to face the truth.

Gowza: Yes, she hits hard. What else? :confused:
I bet you Mirjana Lucic hits even harder, look where she's ranked.
 

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sartrista7, what part was stupid? playing better is reliant on the player themselves, it doesn't mean they will definately get better results but they give themselves more of a chance to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Glenn said:
With what weapons? What does Dokic have exactly?
To my mind, you've badly underestimated Jelena.

She hits kind of medium paced shots, not nearly as hard as the Williamses, Clijsters or Davenport.
Ai Sugiyama hits 'kind of medium paced shots'. Jelena hits HARD. You're right, she's not in the Williams-Davenport power class, but she easily hits as hard as Clijsters

Her serve is crap.
Her serve is nothing special, but outside of the WWD, no one hits winners off it routinely. Still, you wouldn't call it a 'weapon'.

Variety? Nah-uh. None.
Consistency or the capabilty to get 100's of shots back? No, she's error-prone and isn't extremely fast like Clijsters, the Williamses or for instance Coetzer or Pistolesi.
To my eye, she's one of the faster players on the tour, but of course nowhere near Venus in court coverage.

Jelena's game is fearfully simple.

Hit it hard and aim for the corner. Run the return down. Hit it hard at the other corner. Her strength is her ability to do this for a long time. What I think she fails to realize is that the whole tour is adapting to facing power players. It's the problem everyone has to solve. And if you find tactics that give Serena or Lindsay trouble, those same tactics will like BEAT Jelena. Literally, the evolution of the game is passing her by.
 
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Gowza said:
calm down it's not like i said she would be top 5 or anything, in fact i didn't even say she would be top 10 or ranked anywhere.
this bit was stupid. If she's not going to be in the top 10, how precisely is this 'playing better'? And what do you mean by 'playing better' anyway? With what weapons? With what coach? She's just sacked Gunthardt for trying to introduce a modicum of variety into her game. :rolleyes:
 

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i simply mean playing better. at the moment her shots are inconsistent. i think next year her shots will be more consistent. i'm not talking about weapons just the simple basics. how did she get to #4 in the world without any weapons? i don't regularly follow jelena or watch her so i don't know much about her game but i do know she is in a slump and can play better.
 

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Volcana said:
To my mind, you've badly underestimated Jelena.



Ai Sugiyama hits 'kind of medium paced shots'. Jelena hits HARD. You're right, she's not in the Williams-Davenport power class, but she easily hits as hard as Clijsters



Her serve is nothing special, but out side of the WWD, no one hits winners off it routinely. Still, you wouldn't call it a 'wepon'.





To my eye, she's one of the faster players on the tour, but of course nowhere near Venus in court coverage.

Jelena's game is fearfully simple.

Hit it hard and aim for the corner. Run the return down. Hit it hard at the other corner. Her strength is her ability to do this for a long time. What I think she fails to realize is that the whole tour is adapting to facing power players. It's the problem everyone has to solve. And if you find tactics that give Serena or Lindsay trouble, those same tactics will like BEAT Jelena. Literally, the evolution of the game is passing her by.
Ironically, all the players you've compared Dokic to, and acted like she's better or the same, have been beating her on regular basis.

Fastest player on the tour?

2 Moscow Oct 6 2002 A Coetzer - J Dokic(4) 7-61 3-6 6-3

Just as hard as Clijsters?

QF Key Bisc. Mar 30 2003 K Clijsters(3) - J Dokic(9) 6-2 6-0
SF Toyota Pr. Sep 22 2002 K Clijsters(3) - J Dokic(2) 5-7 6-2 6-3
SF Hamburg May 5 2002 K Clijsters(2) - J Dokic(5) 6-4 4-4

Sugiyama hits medium paced shots, Dokic hits HARD?

1 Antwerp Feb 16 2003 A Sugiyama - J Dokic(6) 7-5 5-7 6-3


Stop putting other players down or compare them to Dokic, it's a humiliation and you know any of them will beat Dokic' ass on any given day.
 

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If you don't play tennis, you probably won't know what I mean when I say that sometimes players go through patches where they are "uninspired." Everything looks and feels "grey." This is when the player sometimes feels flat, unmotivated or starts to doubt their abilities on the court. I'll bet this is something Jelena is probably feeling and going through right now. It can happen if you train and play a lot like Jelena does. No one can get her off the practice court and no one can curtail her schedule just a little. She loves to play. The passion is there but the enthusiasm is not. A lot of you have noted her uninspired performances. From all the good matches I've seen Jelena play, I would never have described her as a medium-paced hitter or someone who lacks creativity with her angles. The worst I've seen her play is when she becomes over-exuberant and makes a lot of errors. But over-exuberance can be good. It's when she looks like she'd rather be somewhere else than trying to win the match.

There are also all these younger players coming up and she's probably feeling threatened by them and questioning whether or not she can keep up with them physically and mentally. When she figures it out for herself, her form will start to pick up again. A big win will bring that confidence back, but that big win has to be brought out from a certain "thing" that can only come from within herself. It has to click. She's probably not doing herself any favours by globetrotting around the world like a flying race horse, but I'm sure her schedule would look a lot different if she had been playing better.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Glenn said:
Ironically, all the players you've compared Dokic to, and acted like she's better or the same, have been beating her on regular basis.
Just so we're all clear, exactly what do you mean by 'acted like she's better or the same'? Specifically, what did I write that carried that meaning. I missed that part.

Fastest player on the tour?

2 Moscow Oct 6 2002 A Coetzer - J Dokic(4) 7-61 3-6 6-3
First off, YOU'RE the one talking about 'fastest player on the tour'. What I wrote was 'one of the faster' and I stand by that. There are 1200 ranked players inthe WTA, and Jelena is faster than at least a thousand of them.

Second, being faster is not the same as being better. Amanda Coetzer is way fater than Lindsay too.

Just as hard as Clijsters?

QF Key Bisc. Mar 30 2003 K Clijsters(3) - J Dokic(9) 6-2 6-0
SF Toyota Pr. Sep 22 2002 K Clijsters(3) - J Dokic(2) 5-7 6-2 6-3
SF Hamburg May 5 2002 K Clijsters(2) - J Dokic(5) 6-4 4-4

Sugiyama hits medium paced shots, Dokic hits HARD?

1 Antwerp Feb 16 2003 A Sugiyama - J Dokic(6) 7-5 5-7 6-3
Are you making the mistake of equating hitting hard with winning tennis? Kim and Ai won those matches by playing better, not just hitting harder.

Stop putting other players down
How am I putting those players down? Saying Ai Sugiyama doesn't hit as hard as Jelena is just stating a fact. You might find five people on this board who think Ai hits harder, but you'd have to pay them. Ai's a better tennis player, which is rather dfifferent than being the harder hitter.

... or compare them to Dokic, it's a humiliation
Why not compare them to Jelena? All the players I compared her to were around her either in age or ranking. They are EXACTLY the players Jelena should be compared to. It would be a near total waste of time to compare her to Krasnouroutskaya or Capriati.
 
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HAHAHAHA i SOOOOOO AGREE when you said " I stopped reading there"

obviously you dont like Dokic beacuse you shit your pants by mentioning the weapons of everyone else....

"medium paced shots" thats why shes like one of the hard hitting baseliners......she hits harder than Clijsters or Henin Hardenne......just not as consitently this year

damn.....her serve may be weak....but her baseline game.......you need CALLLLLM DOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNN
 
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