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37650 Views 571 Replies 92 Participants Last post by Anabelcroft, Oct 17, 2012

Sweety Darling

Discussion Starter · Sep 18, 2012 (Edited)

Dead thread, please close.

Reactions: 2

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mauresmofan

· #41 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

For me Graf was the greatest because

she was the best athlete in the history of the women's game hands down
Footwork was emense ( if you watch how she practised not so long ago with Petkovic her feet NEVER stop moving)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuzYbVgqdwY
developed the most lethal stroke that punched holes through her opposition - really nice example vs fernandez here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZGnpIDGapU
she had incredible consistency off the other wing with a vicious slice
her work ethic was terrifying but she needed that work ethic in order to execute her game plan
she had a poker face and rarely lost her cool let alone matches

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cehowardrx7

· #42 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I started a thread with this title and it was deleted!

"Graf's Slam Count"

However, this thread is allowed with this title!

"Why is Graf overlooked?"

Could somebody tell me the DIFFERENCE? Why was my thread deleted and this one allowed??They both are talking about the same thing!

Thanks in advance,

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mauresmofan

· #43 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

cehowardrx7 said:
I started a thread with this title and it was deleted!

"Graf's Slam Count"

However, this thread is allowed with this title!

"Why is Graf overlooked?"

Could somebody tell me the DIFFERENCE? Why was my thread deleted and this one allowed??They both are talking about the same thing!

Thanks in advance,

Wasn't your one aimed at discrediting Graf claiming Seles would have stopped her winning many many Slams and therefore was just started as a shit stirring thread?

Lucemferre

· #44 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Sweety Darling said:
All theory. No one knows what would have happened - Graf may never have lost to Seles had it not happened - who knows. But what happended to Seles should not take away from Grafs acheivements one bit.

What a load of BS. This isn't the lottery. A 19 year-old dominant no.1 is expected to win more. Graf fans playing the fool is also expected. Who knows? Hmm let me think...Graf wouldn't have won 22 slams, that's what. Of course it takes away from her achievements. When another player other than Nadal won RG in 2009, it was called all sorts of things but deserved even though Nadal was in the draw. Imagine the uproar if he had been stabbed by a Federer fan and Federer had won two calendar year grand slams! We wouldn't hear the end of it. Don't get upset when people bring up the stabbing because it's a part of Graf's legacy.

Anabelcroft

· #45 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Sweety Darling said:
In these somewhat pointless GOAT threads it seems Graf is overlooked when she probably is the GOAT. No way is Serena overtaking her grand slam tally of 22 or weeks at number 1 - so how people can say serena's GOAT is weird.

If this is how "overlooking" looks like I am satisfied!

Anabelcroft

· #46 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

cehowardrx7 said:
Could somebody tell me the DIFFERENCE? Why was my thread deleted and this one allowed??They both are talking about the same thing!

Thanks in advance,

Maybe because you and Gunther Parche have something in common

You both are obsessive about Graf

Lucemferre

· #47 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Anabelcroft said:
Maybe because you and I have something in common

We both are obsessive about Graf

Well said.

Anabelcroft

· #48 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Sweety Darling said:
In these somewhat pointless GOAT threads it seems Graf is overlooked when she probably is the GOAT. No way is Serena overtaking her grand slam tally of 22 or weeks at number 1 - so how people can say serena's GOAT is weird.

On this forum there isn't any poll in which she is not regarded as the greatest and as I said either here on this forum or in some others including Australian Open official site and latest tennis channel magazine greatest rankings:

http://www.tennischannel.com/goat/gallery4.aspx

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/articles/2012-01-24/201201241327373295547.html

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=452541&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440490&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=440636&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=430800&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=422208&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=421749&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=361158&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=324285&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=310033&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=302400&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112616&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=112615&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=139705&highlight=greatest+poll+graf

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-8994351

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=153292

http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/news?slug=ycn-9010645

Hope you checked you enjoyed :wavey:

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Anabelcroft

· #49 · Sep 18, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Lucemferre said:
Well said.

:lol:

At least I don't start threads about her :wavey:

:wavey:

acetoace

· #50 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

I don't think Graf is overlooked. Some would like to consider her the GOAT but I do not see it that way. Personally, I hold that same point employed to counter that Serena isn't the GOAT also holds for Graf. The premise was that it is unfair to judge players accomplishments across eras given varied factors that play into each era i.e. technology, diet, level of competition, advancement in training methods and player's personal level of play (talent y skills) etc. I say fair enough to that..... but if that applies to Serena, why shouldn't same premise apply to Graf?

When one juxtaposes match videos of old (graf's era vs new generation of players), something undeniable sure stands out to the eye. For me, based on training requirements these days and match videos, no way I will consider Graf GOAT over players like Serena, Henin & Venus regardless of numbers since numbers can only be measured relative to quality of competition of the era in question. To me, that isn't saying that Graf did not accomplish more in numbers than Venus/Henin or (Serena atm), what it says is that Graf's numbers were able to be attained based on her era's quality of play & competition.

In my view, salient question to consider is.......if it is right to utilize the fantasy standard of judging across eras (in support of argument that Graf is the GOAT), the question then becomes, given all we know of Graf (her match videos) vs level of play & competition in Serena's generation and current era, would Graf have garnered in said eras all the laurels she garnered in her era? Answer: while likely not in Graf's case, the reverse probably would be the case for Serena based on match videos till date IMHO!

In the end, to be fair to the players and the game, I do not think it is right to judge accomplishments across eras. To that extent, I consider Serena & Graf the best of their respective generation. Graf IS NOT THE GOAT and I see time and history arriving at same conclusion not long from now. IMO, to hold otherwise carries with it a large degree of unfairness to succeeding generations! Whichever way it is looked at, ultimately, "GOAT status" is a myth many are unwilling to admit to atm.

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Anabelcroft

· #51 · Sep 19, 2012 (Edited)

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

acetoace said:
I don't think Graf is overlooked. Some would like to consider her the GOAT but I do not see it that way.Personally...Graf IS NOT THE GOAT and I see time and history arriving at same conclusion not long from now.IMO...

Well,this case is not about one personal thinking based on "IMO" and such,but based on the will of majority of voters and experts...as you could see in the links I posted above!

And it's because of them she is where she is placed,on top,no matter what we personally think...

Universal thinking decides the tennis history and who is the greatest upon their achievements in tennis...not one singular wishful thinking which is in minority...

Anabelcroft

· #52 · Sep 19, 2012 (Edited)

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

acetoace said:
Graf did not accomplish more in numbers than Venus/Henin or (Serena atm), what it says is that Graf's numbers were able to be attained based on her era's quality of play & competition.

:lol:

And if you even exclude all her previous achievements,even semi-retired Graf still leaded in H2H against so called new generation of players,such as Williams sisters together,Hingis,Clijsters and Mauresmo(13-5)(not to mention Lucic,Kournikova etc.) which says that even far from her peak she could play against this new generation of players who were already beating everybody else...

so,there even isn't any point for calling them greater than her!

Lucemferre

· #53 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

acetoace said:
When one juxtaposes match videos of old (graf's era vs new generation of players), something undeniable sure stands out to the eye. For me, based on training requirements these days and match videos, no way I will consider Graf GOAT over players like Serena, Henin & Venus regardless of numbers since numbers can only be measured relative to quality of competition of the era in question. To me, that isn't saying that Graf did not accomplish more in numbers than Venus/Henin or (Serena atm), what it says is that Graf's numbers were able to be attained based on her era's quality of play & competition.

Henin, Venus? You must be kidding. What stands out to me is Graf's incredibly modern game in an era that looks like slow motion compared to today. You don't feel as though you're watching a match from the 80s/90s while watching Graf. Her game is timeless. I have no doubt she would be an all-time great in any era.

Excelscior

· #54 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Never knew or realized Graf was was ever overlooked, even on here. :oh:

:oh:

As far Serena being mentioned for recent GOAT talk/threads; that's just the reaction (or overreaction) from her winning the last two majors and Olympics (plus those 15 majors). That's quite understandable. You would expect that.

What else is there to talk about between the US Open and Tokyo? :lol:

You would think that they would come more to their senses later.

UpChuckSerious

· #55 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Her record might look and sound more impressive than it is. Her forehand is highly regarded and she is remembered for being a great athlete, but it's debatable whether she commands the kind of non-stop reverence for her qualitative abilities that one might expect for someone who achieved so much and achieved so much so recently. In fact, that Serena has joined the GOAT discussion despite being less accomplished and less committed during her career reflects of this to an extent, I believe.

Quantitatively, Graf is ahead of the pack. But if you look at the numbers and think she is still regarded as the standard for high quality tennis in her sport you would be mistaken. And that, to me, is why she is "overlooked."

Nicolás89

· #56 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Excelscior said:
Never knew or realized Graf was was ever overlooked, even on here.

As far Serena being mentioned for recent GOAT talk/threads; that's just the reaction (or overreaction) from her winning the last two majors and Olympics (plus those 15 majors). That's quite understandable. You would expect that.

What else is there to talk about between the US Open and Tokyo? :lol:

You would think that they would come more to their senses later.

No. She has done that in the past (not the olympics though) already, people is discussing this now because Serena is simply playing better than any other woman who has played the game before. Just that.

capcl

· #57 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Sweety Darling said:
In these somewhat pointless GOAT threads it seems Graf is overlooked when she probably is the GOAT. No way is Serena overtaking her grand slam tally of 22 or weeks at number 1 - so how people can say serena's GOAT is weird.

Graf doesn't hold the record, Court does. 24 is the record.

AcesHigh

· #58 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Matías. said:
No. She has done that in the past (not the olympics though) already, people is discussing this now because Serena is simply playing better than any other woman who has played the game before. Just that.

That is so hilariously wrong, you must be joking.

acetoace

· #59 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

Anabelcroft said:
Well,this case is not about one personal thinking based on "IMO" and such,but based on the will of majority of voters and experts...as you could see in the links I posted above!

And it's because of them she is where she is placed,on top,no matter what we personally think...

Universal thinking decides the tennis history and who is the greatest upon their achievements in tennis...not one singular wishful thinking which is in minority...

Of course, "universal thinking" stands forever, right? My friend, "universal thinking" are not always correct nor always true. Infact, in our current world, majority are fools...... so what is your point? I mean, there was a time when "universal thinking" held to the debunked view that the world was flat. Someone challenged that thinking, right? Eventhough the challenge was resisted by many initially, yet, old thinking was abandoned in the end or I'm I wrong?

That said, I still stand by my position and reject the notion that just because majority has held a belief for a long time, therefore same thinking should continue. In my considered view, as tennis progresses and different players evolve over generations, sooner or later, the current "universal thinking" will sound idiotic, senseless and repurgnant in the face of facts evolving.

Again, Graf is not the GOAT based on premise I stated in earlier post. What more, I doubt I'm the only one holding my poistion. You just need to dig more for contrary view (and there are many). I suggest u start on TF in case u don't like to dig deep.

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Nicolás89

· #60 · Sep 19, 2012

Re: Why is Graf overlooked?

AcesHigh said:
That is so hilariously wrong, you must be joking.

No I'm not. IDK how anyone can deny with a straight face that Serena's recent form is unbeatable? I bet Martina & Steffi would agree.

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