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Discussion Starter #122
Again, this is just dumb. Extremely dumb, and I can't believe you're doubling down on something this dumb. Djokovic's French Open record does not define his career. It is one of several elements that define his career, but there is much, much, much more to his legacy that his record in one tournament. Again, I can't believe you're doubling down over something this patently absurd.
Whatever, this is not menstennisforums. Nadal still has a better W/L record at Slams than Djokovic does, there's just no credibility in claiming that Navok and his 17 Slams are greater than Nadal and his 20 Slams. But whatever makes you sleep better at night.

1) Plenty of celebrities are vaccine skeptics and it hasn't affected their fame or fortune. Robert De Niro, Jim Carrey, Jessica Biel, Selma Blair, Lisa Bonet, Toni Braxton, Bill Maher and many more. Even a very smart, very grounded person like Mayim Bialik. It says nothing about a person's character to be skeptical about vaccinations. At worst, they may have access to skewed information and concerned about their children's health and safety.
Yes it does, it makes you a moron and a public threat to society. Smart people who believe in moronic stuff are nothing new, there are creationist astrophysicists for instance, it's what's popularly known as "smart stupid". Fair enough about the bolded part, though.

2) Considering Djokovic is a very amiable person who is fairly popular in the locker room and gets along even with an ice queen like Sharapova and ignores players who bad-mouth him without ever responding, and never seen ridiculing or trading barbs with his peers, your constant ramblings about his repellent personality and narcissism just seems like your own personal derangement.
Douchebags are very submissive about male authority (and there's plenty of evidence that the average ATP player is far douchier than the average man in the developed world, for example the fact that there hasn't been an openly gay ATP player yet), so being "fairly popular" in the men's locker room is a low hurdle to clear for an all-time great male player.

3) There is no evidence that if he was a "woman athlete", he'd be less popular or marketable. There are no dominant women with 17 slams to test that theory.
Navratilova's supposedly bad looks greatly affected her popularity. I actually think she has better features than Djokovic.

What a weird digression. What game is ugly is a matter of taste. Justine Henin's stroke production was ATP-like and considered the most beautiful game on tour by many. As is someone like Barty today. So it's irrelevant if you consider men's tennis ugly. You're welcome to your opinion.
The only beautiful things about Henin's game were her backhand and her volleys, everything else was an eyesore. Hingis would be a different story, and her game was as un-ATP as it gets.
The reality is that you'd have to be extremely aesthetically challenged to not be able to recognize that women's tennis is simply much better-looking than men's tennis is. The vast majority of men's techniques are just robotic, mechanical and quasi-identical. Astra Sharma is a good example of a women's tennis player having an ugly ATP game, as many people noted here during the short time she was a main tour regular.

To say that that is a function of "chauvinism" is as silly as saying anyone who enjoys wheelchair tennis less than their able-bodies peers is some kind of ableist chauvinist.
What an ugly comparison. Almost as ugly as men's tennis.

Women's sports, tennis included, are less popular than men's cos they're seen as 2nd tier - physically and even technically.
Nah, it's primarily because of this:

So only gender counts... Lets seperate them out by that demographic but other demographics are meaningless... :unsure:

I dunno, but for me, I like to see it as a joint effort of all players bringing revenue to the tournament, particularly as the Slams. Some female players will attract much more crowds and TV coverage than male players. On average males will bring more..But society predisposes us to value male sport over female sport..and TBH female tennis players do a incredibly job of generating fan/media interest considering everything set against them. If you can't see that then this is where the disrespect towards women comes into play, which is sad to see on this forum.
Sexism is still rampant in all corners of society but some people choose to completely ignore that because it's inconvenient to their male supremacist fantasies. 🤷
 

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Whatever, this is not menstennisforums. Nadal still has a better W/L record at Slams than Djokovic does, there's just no credibility in claiming that Navok and his 17 Slams are greater than Nadal and his 20 Slams. But whatever makes you sleep better at night.
I didn't say Djokovic is "greater". I said he was the "best" of his generation. There's a subtle difference between both words. Arguing about who is greater is often made in the context of accomplishments, where Nadal may be marginally ahead, though looking pretty certain to be overhauled by Djokovic. By referring to "best", I'm saying Djokovic is the most dominant champion of his era - which he clearly, indisputably is. Disputing this initially by claiming he "ate a bagel" in a French Open final is dumb. Everyone can see it was a dumb comment. And you just kept spinning and digging in with irrelevancies.

Yes it does, it makes you a moron and a public threat to society. Smart people who believe in moronic stuff are nothing new, there are creationist astrophysicists for instance, it's what's popularly known as "smart stupid". Fair enough about the bolded part, though.
Whether it is moronic or not is irrelevant to claiming someone is "repellent" cos he's a vaccine skeptic. Only repellent people express such prejudice. I'm an atheist, and I don't walk around calling religious people repellent because they believe fantasies. And except he's an anti-vaccine activist and crusader calling for people not to use vaccines, he's not a public threat for having a personal opinion.

Douchebags are very submissive about male authority (and there's plenty of evidence that the average ATP player is far douchier than the average man in the developed world, for example the fact that there hasn't been an openly gay ATP player yet), so being "fairly popular" in the men's locker room is a low hurdle to clear for an all-time great male player.
It's always a funny thing how people who love to term men as misogynists are pretty blatant misandrists such as yourself. The ATP player is "douchy" on average because there are no known gay ATP players. I'm guessing you have some evidence to back this up beyond just being an actual misandrist, right? You've repeatedly called Djokovic a narcissist with tenuous claims to support the claim despite the fact with the exception of someone like Nadal ("I have to play my very bestest tennis ever to beat player X ranked no 356 at Roland Garros"), he's one of the more understated champions. And this is your best attempt to substantiate it?

Navratilova's supposedly bad looks greatly affected her popularity. I actually think she has better features than Djokovic.
I'd wager vastly more women would find Djokovic attractive than men who would find Navratilova attractive. But that overly simplifies Navratilova being less popular than Evert. She was from the Eastern bloc. And gay. And was seen as less stereotypically feminine and attractive. And wasn't a particularly bubbly personality. It's no different from how her Czech compatriot, Lendl, was far less popular than the likes of Borg (handsome, fashionable, rockstar cool Scandinavian), and more colorful personalities like Connors, McEnroe and Becker. I'm still yet to hear a coherent substantiation of your claim that Djokovic "trades on his male privilege".

The only beautiful things about Henin's game were her backhand and her volleys, everything else was an eyesore. Hingis would be a different story, and her game was as un-ATP as it gets.
The reality is that you'd have to be extremely aesthetically challenged to not be able to recognize that women's tennis is simply much better-looking than men's tennis is. The vast majority of men's techniques are just robotic, mechanical and quasi-identical. Astra Sharma is a good example of a women's tennis player having an ugly ATP game, as many people noted here during the short time she was a main tour regular.
This is as silly as arguing about who is better looking or sexier between Chris Evans and Scarlet Johansson. It's a useless, and lame, argument. Women's tennis looks better to you. That's your opinion and those who disagree aren't "aesthetically challenged". Plenty of people think the opposite. I find men far more technically proficient than women myself. I prefer the mechanics of their topspin shots and wrist action to the frying pan forehands on the WTA and prefer the balance in their textbook movement to those fugly, clumsy half-volley squatting shots that are very common on the WTA. And I think anyone that believes any part of Henin's game was an "eyesore" is "aesthetically challenged".

What an ugly comparison. Almost as ugly as men's tennis.

Nah, it's primarily because of this:

Sexism is still rampant in all corners of society but some people choose to completely ignore that because it's inconvenient to their male supremacist fantasies. 🤷
I'm not sure about tennis but most of the viewers of many female sports like women's football and the WNBA and the LPGA are men. It seems women apparently hate women's sports even more than men do. I guess both men and women are male supremacists.
 

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Discussion Starter #124 (Edited)
I didn't say Djokovic is "greater". I said he was the "best" of his generation. There's a subtle difference between both words. Arguing about who is greater is often made in the context of accomplishments, where Nadal may be marginally ahead, though looking pretty certain to be overhauled by Djokovic. By referring to "best", I'm saying Djokovic is the most dominant champion of his era - which he clearly, indisputably is. Disputing this initially by claiming he "ate a bagel" in a French Open final is dumb. Everyone can see it was a dumb comment. And you just kept spinning and digging in with irrelevancies.
And Nadal is the most consistent champion of his era, therefore he is the best. See? I also can come up with my own criteria to decide which one is the best. And I'm done with this argument, this is not MTF.

Whether it is moronic or not is irrelevant to claiming someone is "repellent" cos he's a vaccine skeptic. Only repellent people express such prejudice. I'm an atheist, and I don't walk around calling religious people repellent because they believe fantasies. And except he's an anti-vaccine activist and crusader calling for people not to use vaccines, he's not a public threat for having a personal opinion.
The more people choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children, the bigger the increase in preventable diseases amongst the population is. And also the bigger the possibility of an outbreak is because of the weakening of herd immunity. And let's not pretend anti-vaxxers don't proselytize their ideas to their friends and family. So yes, it is a public threat.



And it's a repellently narcissistic train of thought if you ask me, the fact that so many Hollywood actors are anti-vaxxers I think only makes my case stronger.

It's always a funny thing how people who love to term men as misogynists are pretty blatant misandrists such as yourself. The ATP player is "douchy" on average because there are no known gay ATP players. I'm guessing you have some evidence to back this up beyond just being an actual misandrist, right? You've repeatedly called Djokovic a narcissist with tenuous claims to support the claim despite the fact with the exception of someone like Nadal ("I have to play my very bestest tennis ever to beat player X ranked no 356 at Roland Garros"), he's one of the more understated champions. And this is your best attempt to substantiate it?
Why am I a misandrist? For saying that a tour with a number of macho homophobes big enough throughout the years to have a climate that hasn't made ANY gay player EVER comfortable enough to have come out is "douchy"? Lmao. You could actually make the argument that expecting men to be better than heteropatriarchal monkeys would be the exact opposite of misandry.

I'm still yet to hear a coherent substantiation of your claim that Djokovic "trades on his male privilege".
Yes, back when I said that male sports are intrinsically linked to the concept of masculinity and thus men who prefer women's sports or even like them too much would be shamed and even outcasted by their peers? Thus contributing to male sports' popularity over women's sports and thus making Djokovic and every male player trade on their male privilege? I'm still yet to hear a coherent rebuttal to that.

This is as silly as arguing about who is better looking or sexier between Chris Evans and Scarlet Johansson. It's a useless, and lame, argument. Women's tennis looks better to you. That's your opinion and those who disagree aren't "aesthetically challenged". Plenty of people think the opposite. I find men far more technically proficient than women myself. I prefer the mechanics of their topspin shots and wrist action to the frying pan forehands on the WTA and prefer the balance in their textbook movement to those fugly, clumsy half-volley squatting shots that are very common on the WTA. And I think anyone that believes any part of Henin's game was an "eyesore" is "aesthetically challenged".
Obviously Scarlett is better-looking (how many photoshoots has Chris Evans done as opposed to her? How much attention has his beauty received in comparison to hers?), just like it's obvious that women's tennis is better-looking. Beauty is subjective and (at least in part) cultural so you're entitled to believe that Chris Evans or men's tennis are better-looking, just like you're entitled to believe that a train station is better-looking than a French château. It still is an odd opinion.

I'm not sure about tennis but most of the viewers of many female sports like women's football and the WNBA and the LPGA are men. It seems women apparently hate women's sports even more than men do. I guess both men and women are male supremacists.
Or that men just watch more sports in general?
 

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And Nadal is the most consistent champion of his era, therefore he is the best. See? I also can come up with my own criteria to decide which one is the best. And I'm done with this argument, this is not MTF.
You're entitled to that opinion. You keep wriggling out of the bone of contention: your claim that Djokovic "ate a bagel" in a final which apparently disqualifies him from being the best of his generation. Claiming Nadal is arguably the greater player is a valid argument and not what I'm arguing against. Claiming Djokovic can't be the best player of his generation cos he "ate a bagel" in a match is pretty absurd. Not sure how many more times I can outline the distinction before it percolates.

The more people choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children, the bigger the increase in preventable diseases amongst the population is. And also the bigger the possibility of an outbreak is because of the weakening of herd immunity. And let's not pretend anti-vaxxers don't proselytize their ideas to their friends and family. So yes, it is a public threat.



And it's a repellently narcissistic train of thought if you ask me, the fact that so many Hollywood actors are anti-vaxxers I think only makes my case stronger.
Again, pointing out that anti-vaxxers are wrong in their opinion is irrelevant here. You have quite the penchant for missing the point entirely. I'm disputing the repellent claim that having such an opinion makes someone repellent. If you believe that, you are repellent.

Why am I a misandrist? For saying that a tour with a number of macho homophobes big enough throughout the years to have a climate that hasn't made ANY gay player EVER comfortable enough to have come out is "douchy"? Lmao. You could actually make the argument that expecting men to be better than heteropatriarchal monkeys would be the exact opposite of misandry.
There is no evidence that any "macho homophobes" have prevented gay men from coming out. Your fave, Martina Hingis, made more homophobic comments in her heyday than any ATP player I know not named Stakhovsky. And none of this has any correlation with the assertion that Djokovic's grounded relationship with his peers doesn't prove your repeated claim that he is a repellent narcissist. On the contrary, he's been on the receiving end of aggro from players like Federer and Roddick and always ignored it all or responded with grace, even though he's been in positions where he could brag and rub it in his rivals' faces. It's also well known he used to be a close friend of Nadal till he started dominating their rivalry and their relationship cooled (from Nadal's end). This is also a guy who fights for the redistribution of prize money from the top to the lower earning players. And sought to create a relief fund for players struggling to make a living amidst all the Covid lockdowns. All hallmarks of a "repellent narcissist" from your armchair psychoanalysis which is certainly not motivated by your misandry.

Yes, back when I said that male sports are intrinsically linked to the concept of masculinity and thus men who prefer women's sports or even like them too much would be shamed and even outcasted by their peers? Thus contributing to male sports' popularity over women's sports and thus making Djokovic and every male player trade on their male privilege? I'm still yet to hear a coherent rebuttal to that.
Another claim without a shred of evidence. Plenty of men here like the WTA. Who are these people shaming and "outcasting" them? You're the same person that claimed Sharapova and Kournikova are more relevant than Djokovic. Your very own claim (silly as it was) contradicts your "male privilege" spin when you assert that 2 infinitely less accomplished women whose greatest claim to mainstream fame is being attractive, leggy blondes are apparently more "relevant" than potentially the greatest player to ever lift a racquet.
Again, male sports greater popularity over women is a function of male sports being the pinnacle of the sports in question. Simple. Everything else is delusional noise.

Obviously Scarlett is better-looking (how many photoshoots has Chris Evans done as opposed to her? How much attention has his beauty received in comparison to hers?), just like it's obvious that women's tennis is better-looking. Beauty is subjective and (at least in part) cultural so you're entitled to believe that Chris Evans or men's tennis are better-looking, just like you're entitled to believe that a train station is better-looking than a French château. It still is an odd opinion.

Or that men just watch more sports in general?
Actresses do a lot more photoshoots than men for the same reason the female modelling industry is far bigger than the men's. That owes a lot to consumer choices and has nothing to do with who is better looking. I think men exhibit far more technical proficiency in ball striking and movement than women in tennis and hence, have more attractive games. I've done you the credit of respecting that you're entitled to the opposite view and it's all in the eyes of the beholder. But don't give me the garbage that anyone who thinks otherwise is "aesthetically challenged" and his opinion is somehow "odd".

Yes, men watch more sports. They're also the primary market of many women's sports too. Portraying them as sexist for not supporting women's sports equally with men's is about as silly as portraying women as sexist for not equally supporting male models in the fashion industry. We're entertained by what we're entertained by and can't compel ourselves otherwise. It's no one's fault that the female consumer market would rather make the Kardashian clan billionaires than support female athletes. And then blame men when female athletes don't get the same recognition as men.
 
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