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Discussion Starter #1
OK. I have always thought that the h2h 43-37 for Martina over Chris was a little unfair. After all, Chris won many events in the early years of their careers in which Martina lost prior to the finals to another player. So I went through the WTA website and logged info on tournaments in which both players participated.

Surprising. There were 164 events that both players played. Evert won 71 of those events. Martina won 56. Some might say that this is unfair in that Martina was only 16 when they first played. However, to discount Martina because of age is to discount an Evert strength - she beat the top players on the world at ages 15 and 16. Also, the two year age difference came back to hurt Evert later. Martina won the 6 of the last events the two played together (Graf or Sabatini won 7 - you have to go back to '88 Houston to find Evert's last win).
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Players who won events in which Evert and Navratilova were both entered.

Evert 71
Navratilova 56
Graf 10
King 6
Goolagong 3
Wade 4
Court 3
Austin 6
Mandlikova 2
Sukova 1
Sabatini 2
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Players who beat Martina and Chris in the same event:
Graf 2
Sukova 1
Mandlikova 1
Jaeger 1
Austin 4
Goolagong 2
Casals 1
 

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good and unique topic thread to start. of course most think the biggest argument between chris and martina, martina and chris is the head to head who was better in the end argument..

i think like others one has to take the numbers 43-37 into proper context, whether early in their careers, the end of their careers, the middle domination of martina, the "what if's" chris had switched to graphite earlier? what if martin had gotten in better physical and mental condition earlier? etcetera...

the biggest most used argument in the head to head totals seemingly is the whole "it depends on which surface they played on and which surface they played on the most" argument which i find very valid...

at the end of the day the 43-37 head to head is too close to call and in 80 matches and this long of a time span of a rivalry i think the reality is that their rivalry ended for all intents and purposes EVEN, DEAD EVEN.. now if the head to head after 80 matches was 50-30 then of course one would have to give the career and 'who was truly better" advantage to one or the other...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It's surprising that Austin was so successful in winning 6 events in which Evert and Navratilova entered and beating them both in the same event 4 times. As surprising is that Goolagong (in more years of opportunity) only won 3 events in which the two were entered and only beat the two in the same event twice. I don't often give Austin enough credit for her top rate play. It also shows the brilliant inconsistency of Goolagong. Amazing that BJK never beat both players in the same event. Kudos to Rosie for making the short list of those who beat them both in the same event. She only beat Evert once and it happened to be in an event where she also beat young Martina.
 

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Don't think Jaeger ever beat Evert and Navratilova in the same event. She only beat Chris three times, all three wins were in the first half of '82: Oakland, Hilton Head and Roland Garros, Martina proceeded to beat Andrea in the finals of the latter two and I'm pretty sure she didn't play in Oakland in '82.
 

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Really interesting way to look at things, and underlines Chris's comnsistency over such a long period. Preacherfan, if it's not too much trouble, how does Chris's 71 & Martina's 56 look broken up to pre and post 83?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Don't think Jaeger ever beat Evert and Navratilova in the same event. She only beat Chris three times, all three wins were in the first half of '82: Oakland, Hilton Head and Roland Garros, Martina proceeded to beat Andrea in the finals of the latter two and I'm pretty sure she didn't play in Oakland in '82.
Jaeger shouldn't be included. However, in the YEC of '81, Jaeger had a walkover against Evert and beat Navratilova. So technically, I guess, she beat both.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
1973 - 10 events - Evert 6/Navratilova 0
1974 - 14 events - Evert 9/Navratilova 0
1975 - 14 events - Evert 9/Navratilova 2
1976 - 12 events - Evert 10/Navratilova 1
1977 - 12 events - Evert 9/Navratilova 2
1978 - 8 events - Evert 5/Navratilova 2
1979 - 11 events - Evert 3/Navratilova 6
1980 - 7 events - Evert 3/Navratilova 3
1981 - 10 events - Evert 3/Navratilova 2 (Austin - 4)
1982 - 7 events - Evert 2/Navratilova 5
1983 - 8 events - Evert 1/Navratilova 7
1984 - 8 events - Evert 1/Navratilova 7
1985 - 9 events - Evert 3/Navratilova 5
1986 - 7 events - Evert 2/Navratilova 5
1987 - 9 events - Evert 1/Navratilova 3
1988 - 10 events - Evert 1/Navratilova 3
1989 - 5 events - Evert 0/Navratilova 3
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Between the 1981 YEC (won by Austin) and the 1985 US Open (won by Mandlikova), no other player won an event in which both Chris and Martina played. Wow!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
at the end of the day the 43-37 head to head is too close to call and in 80 matches and this long of a time span of a rivalry i think the reality is that their rivalry ended for all intents and purposes EVEN, DEAD EVEN.. now if the head to head after 80 matches was 50-30 then of course one would have to give the career and 'who was truly better" advantage to one or the other...
I agree. The point of this thread is not to prove the superiority of one player over another but to show that Evert has an advantage in the number of h2h tournament wins. Evert almost never lost to a lesser player early in an event. Martina was subject to more early losses in events, though she was very difficult to beat once she reached the finals. Different characteristics of the two players in the sport's best rivalry.
 

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Great idea for a thread PF:)

It's surprising that Austin was so successful in winning 6 events in which Evert and Navratilova entered and beating them both in the same event 4 times.
Not so surprising to me. Some like to knock Tracy Awesome (not you Preacherfan), but to my mind she far and away the biggest threat to the Chris and Martina dominance. All one has to do is read Evert's autobiography to see how big a threat she viewed, where she places huge importance on beating Tracy at the 1980 US Open.

The other thing is the short space she did all that wreckage in. Chris basically started to play the tour at 16. Austin won a slam at 16. Trascums was a teenage terror if ever there was one!

What surprised me was the low totals for Evonne. In the 1974-76 period I expected her totals to be higher.
 

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Don't think Jaeger ever beat Evert and Navratilova in the same event. She only beat Chris three times, all three wins were in the first half of '82: Oakland, Hilton Head and Roland Garros, Martina proceeded to beat Andrea in the finals of the latter two and I'm pretty sure she didn't play in Oakland in '82.
Hey Pam:wavey:

In retrospect the 1982 French was Andrea's best chance for a double and a slam. She had set point, on clay, vs a Martina who had never won at Roland Garros. It was a perfect setup for her.

Martina's win was a testament to her mental fortitude that day. Things could have easily went south for her.
 

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Thanks Precherfan. Interesting that Chris only won 9 of her 71 (13%) from 83 onwards, where as Martina won 33 of her 56 (59%).

Chris's stats are much more lopsided than Martina's. 1979 seems to be the turing point.
 

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Players who won events in which Evert and Navratilova were both entered.

Evert 71
Navratilova 56
Graf 10
King 6
Goolagong 3
Wade 4
Court 3
Austin 6
Mandlikova 2
Sukova 1
Sabatini 2
Interesting. Amazing someone like Hana who has won 4 slams only won 2 events that Chris and Martina were both in. I would have figured Graf would be alot higher than 10 since she began winning alot of tournaments as early as 1986, and dominated the last 2-3 years when both Navratilova and Evert were both still on tour and near the top. I would have also guessed Goolagong being alot higher than 3 considering she was Evert's biggest rival and superior to Martina from 74-76.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Interesting. Amazing someone like Hana who has won 4 slams only won 2 events that Chris and Martina were both in. I would have figured Graf would be alot higher than 10 since she began winning alot of tournaments as early as 1986, and dominated the last 2-3 years when both Navratilova and Evert were both still on tour and near the top. I would have also guessed Goolagong being alot higher than 3 considering she was Evert's biggest rival and superior to Martina from 74-76.
Yeah, I hadn't thought about the fact that two of the Slams Hana won were Evert-less. During Graf's rise, Evert and Navratilova seemed to enter the same event less frequently. Also, Goolagong is quite surprising. She entered events with both players frequently, and sometimes beat one of them, but obviously not both very often.
 

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I think Jaeger did not. She beat Martina in the semis in the Colgate championships in 1981 but her win over Chris in the Round-Robin was a walk-over.
 

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I think Jaeger did not. She beat Martina in the semis in the Colgate championships in 1981 but her win over Chris in the Round-Robin was a walk-over.
That's right Jeanmi18. Chris got sick that year with the flu I think. Young little Rollo was dissapointed because I was going to see Evert for the first time in person that year. I didn't get to see her until her very last year on tour-1989!

The Colgate event was played in the first week of 1981. At the time it was really considered the last event of 1980. I'm one of the few Tracy Austin fans around, but when Tracy won the event (killing Jaeger in the final) she tried to claim she was #1!:rolleyes:

In Austin's view she had 2 majors (the Avon finale and the Colgate finale) to Evert's 1 (Tracy didn't count the French!:lol:).

Austin was selling, but no one was buying. Everyone agreed Evert was #1 for 1980. To my mind it was her best year ever outside of 1976. too bad she skipped the Aussie!
 

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Gotta admire Tracy's audacity! Austin did of course briefly become #1 in the summer of 1980, I think, but I was wondering how much that was a result of Evert "retiring" during the first months of 1980? Was it fair and square or was she helped by both Evert and Navratilova going through slumps at that time?

Continuing on the bitter Evert-Austin rivalry, it is interesting that after Evert had conquered her demons and defeated Austin using great all-court play in the famous 1980 US Open final, she was drawn in the same half of the draw as Tracy at Wimbledon in 1981 and 1982. I think Chris would have schooled Tracy on grass if they had met, but both times Tracy lost to a serve-and-volleyer (Shriver, King). They were even seeded to meet at Wimbledon in 1983 as well, but Tracy withdrew and Evert lost anyway in R3 to Kathy Jordan.
 

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thanks for the evert/austin draw information.. one could only imagine if evert and austin played for the 80 wimby final BEFORE of course their u.s. open battle what the outcome would have been?...

and yes, 1981 on grass? evert was the better grass court player i think but that i don't know if it would mean a whole lot especially in 1981 when it was still a mind game between the two...

in 1982 i'm sure evert was expecting to play austin instead of king, since austin had never lost to king before. would have love to seen a 1982 match at wimby between evert and austin! one would think evert would have the edge at that time if only because she had been playing much more with more regularity than austin....

in 1983? i think this would be even more clearly to evert's advantage over austin who was declining as it was for the good part of what a year already?
 
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