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Rise up from ignorance
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What would be interesting would be a separation of biology but also an understanding.

I think a possible solution is to treat trans as separate category; while not completely fair there is some degree of culturally-accepted fairness possibly? Let me think it through... I don't know if it would really be fair to have trans people compete with men either because even though their birth sex assignment is male, they are still biologically different, especially after transition. I mean in reality sports are never really fair to begin with on the basis of biology. Using sex as a separator is just a generally socially accepted way of separating people, something that most people accept as a binary, something that is kind of mostly based on science but obviously there are outliers.

I think this is also where discussion of equality gets a little messy too, and because the concept of equality in the minds of human beings is not really clearly defined. Even though people want to treat men and women with equality, we still permit and celebrate a separation of sexes in sports. In general, men's averages are higher then female averages, and in almost all sports, men's records and elites are better than women's records and elites. Based on this, it seems more people would have a problem with a trans female competing in female sports than a trans male competing in male sports. I know there are also some rare situations in which a female wants to compete on the boys team, and while this is not universally allowed/accepted, people don't really see it as unfair.

Some high school athlete in an article about the high school wrestling trans male competing in female wrestling said that she felt they should be allowed to change their gender but wait until after high school or quit the sport altogether. My suggestion is maybe rather than quitting the sport altogether, create a new competition? Or maybe society just needs to come to an understanding that this is messy and just let people compete in whatever gender the contestant feels they are connected to (maybe it needs to get medically/psychologically verified though) and accept the "unfair" ramifications, even though some people are already born with much more dramatic biological differences to begin with.

Even though women have always competed in sports with men, the notion of separate women sports is also long in history. Women's sports and adaptive sports exist in part because on average, an elite woman and an elite adaptive performs worse than an elite male. Putting trans in adaptive sports wouldn't make sense, and putting all trans and intersex in their own collective category would not be fair to transmen/women who can compete on the same level of some elite females/males, just as Oscar Pistorious was allowed to compete with non-adaptive men. Also while it is accepted to put women in a different sport than men, it is not accepted for other biologically-related differences.

I don't really know where I was going with the last paragraph but basically there is no clear cut answer that really is fair to everyone. The main reason this is such an issue is putting those who were sex assigned male or intersex into female competitions and this is seen as unfair to those who have felt and been identified as biological women since birth. However, what these arguments also ignore are biological differences between women and how it is also basically accepted inequality to put women in a different category than men. Perhaps this is why, according to the third place finisher in the article, she just wants to focus on the clock - "'To be honest, I think it's great they get a chance to compete and as long as they're happy, I guess, there's not that much I can do,' she said. 'The rules are the rules. The only competition is the clock. You can only run as fast as you can.' "

So IMO, having trans as a separate category would only work if trans wanted that. If they didn't, oh well. It's not fair to them to not participate, but they should follow the same hormone rules and other rules as men and women to keep it fair as much as possible within those sports. The rules can always change, but the rules should not be changed to specifically exclude or discriminate against trans individuals, only those who try to compete unfairly. People also need to realize that sports are not fair to begin with and maybe they will care less. :)
A separate category will make the liberals riot about discrimination again. Your logic is pure bullshit.

The only solution is biological. Put the restrictor plates on Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba. Funny how "women who feel like men" never compete in the men's division. It's ALWAYS the other way around. You know where the genetical advantage lies :shrug:
 

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Why are people lumping transgender athletes a seperate issue to Caster's situation. Caster was born a biological female who happen's to have a condition that gives her more testorterone,this is not an issue of "she identifies" as a female she was biologically born a female. The new testosterone level ruling is bigoted plain and simple
 

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The modern world has produced many new problems and issues and society is struggling to catch up. The IAAF has made a rather clumsy attempt to deal with Caster's (and any who might be like her) situation. If she is biologically a woman and just happens to have high levels of testosterone then that's just a characteristic that helps her (or might help her) perform well in her sport. Let's face it, all elite athletes are 'outliers' one way or another because to get to the very pinnacle of sport these days, simply working hard isn't enough.
 

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The question is, is she a biological woman. Caster was born with testicles which is the reason for the higher levels of testosterone
 

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A separate category will make the liberals riot about discrimination again. Your logic is pure bullshit.

The only solution is biological. Put the restrictor plates on Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba. Funny how "women who feel like men" never compete in the men's division. It's ALWAYS the other way around. You know where the genetical advantage lies :shrug:
Harsh words. You can't articulate how my logic is bullshit :eek:h:, and then you basically say the same thing I did in one part.
 

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I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.
 

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I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.
This is pure genetics that's making all the difference. Testosterone doesn't translate to one's height :rolleyes:

Harsh words. You can't articulate how my logic is bullshit :eek:h:, and then you basically say the same thing I did in one part.
Your main idea of creating a separate category for trans people is bullshit ;) Biology should be the deciding factor and we should rule out all the politics and equal rights. Semenya is anything but equal and was handed restrictions before. You probably have no idea who Jarmila Kratochvilova is but Semenya could have broken her WR if only she wanted to and that's when the real uproar would happen. However she's smart enough not to go there.
 

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This is pure genetics that's making all the difference. Testosterone doesn't translate to one's height :rolleyes:
I don't understand the point you're making.

There's certainly a hormonal basis for height (one cause of dwarfism is low growth hormone) but that wasn't MY point.
My point is that there are many instances when we don't handicap people who have natural advantages in a sport.

In fact we comment on their good fortune for having extra reach or longer strides etc.
So if a great comes along who has a gift from nature (freakish height, testosterone, lung capacity, w/e) and dominates as a result I don't see it as unfair.
 

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I don't understand the point you're making.

There's certainly a hormonal basis for height (one cause of dwarfism is low growth hormone) but that wasn't MY point.
My point is that there are many instances when we don't handicap people who have natural advantages in a sport.

In fact we comment on their good fortune for having extra reach or longer strides etc.
So if a great comes along who has a gift from nature (freakish height, testosterone, lung capacity, w/e) and dominates as a result I don't see it as unfair.
But it works the other way around because we have TUE and those who benefit from it claim they want to have a level playing field. So what should stop us from cutting down on those who have an advantage if we help those who are allegedly disadvantaged already? (even tjough TUE is a grey area alone) :shrug:
 

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No.
It's about countries who specifically search for athletes like Caster to get victories. Caster has an unfair advantage (and at least few others - the number of them is getting higher and higher, no wonder why) over other women.


Why is it "unfair" when Nature has endowed her with the gift of size and strength?
 

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I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.

Bingo.

Gymnasts who are 5' tall have a natural advantage over those who are 5'8" or taller. After all, how many gymnasts exceed 6'? None, so far as I know.

Does anyone complain when those athletes grow too tall for their sport? Of course not.
 

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Why is it "unfair" when Nature has endowed her with the gift of size and strength?
Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?
 

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Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?
Melissa Bishop. ;)

I'm on the fence re: this issue... :eek:
It's not Caster that she's born with testicules inside of her but it does suck for other females that compete against her.

I looked up the picture of the woman who has that world record: she looks like she had help... and not of the natural kind :tape:
 
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But it works the other way around because we have TUE and those who benefit from it claim they want to have a level playing field. So what should stop us from cutting down on those who have an advantage if we help those who are allegedly disadvantaged already? (even tjough TUE is a grey area alone) :shrug:
You're all over the place, man. What do TUEs have to do with it?

Many common medications are banned for athletes but they're human and can get sick so clearly they will need to be treated without running afoul of the anti-doping rules. I guarantee that something banned is in a simple bottle of over-the-counter cough syrup so TUEs will be needed for various mundane reasons. If a diabetic athelete needs insulin there is no issue of fairness at all. Other people naturally make all the insulin they need and the athlete would be taking insulin even if they stopped participating in the sport.

The playing field is level in that we don't allow a motorcyclist to take the line at a 100m race but we allow people of naturally diverse builds and height. Likewise it is not allowed for someone to take drugs specifically to gain a competitive advantage. We remove artificial aids to improved performance NOT the natural human variation that makes some people better at some tasks.
 

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You're all over the place, man. What do TUEs have to do with it?

Many common medications are banned for athletes but they're human and can get sick so clearly they will need to be treated without running afoul of the anti-doping rules. I guarantee that something banned is in a simple bottle of over-the-counter cough syrup so TUEs will be needed for various mundane reasons. If a diabetic athelete needs insulin there is no issue of fairness at all. Other people naturally make all the insulin they need and the athlete would be taking insulin even if they stopped participating in the sport.

The playing field is level in that we don't allow a motorcyclist to take the line at a 100m race but we allow people of naturally diverse builds and height. Likewise it is not allowed for someone to take drugs specifically to gain a competitive advantage. We remove artificial aids to improved performance NOT the natural human variation that makes some people better at some tasks.
Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.
 

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Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.
:facepalm:
Endogenous hormones is not equal to doping. If that were the case then EVERYONE dopes.
In fact, if the rule is upheld Semenya will have to take drugs to comply with it.
 

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Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.
What are the issues with Wambui and Niyonsaba?
 

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Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?



"common sense"

''offensive to the majority''

"disadvantage real women"


Laughable, utterly laughable. As Semenya says,





She has a great site which answers her critics:

https://twitter.com/caster800m



There's an old story about sour grapes making the best whine ... uh, wine. And we see plenty of that among the malcontents who think Nature has given an unfair advantage to people like Semenya, yourself among them. But then, there are others who see things differently as does the following Asian commentator:


''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''

https://www.facebook.com/cnnsport/posts/2231032233579910



I join with this commentator based on my own life experience as an athlete being only 5'6" and today weighing 155 lbs (I weighed considerably less in my youth and am now well into my 60s). For many years I competed against athletes who were FAR taller and infinitely stronger than I was in sports such as baseball, softball, volleyball, running cross country, and in other athletic activities. Often enough I got my ass kicked on the playing field. But never once did I whine about it. Instead, when I retired from actively playing, I became a coach and trained athletes who were twice my size for well over twenty years winning several championships. Thus, I used my smarts to overcome the disadvantages you are whining about. That's what winning athletes do.
 
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"common sense"

''offensive to the majority''

"disadvantage real women"


Laughable, utterly laughable. As Semenya says,





She has a great site which answers her critics:

https://twitter.com/caster800m



There's an old story about sour grapes making the best whine ... uh, wine. And we see plenty of that among the malcontents who think Nature has given an unfair advantage to people like Semenya, yourself among them. But then, there are others who see things differently as does the following Asian commentator:


''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''

https://www.facebook.com/cnnsport/posts/2231032233579910



I join with this commentator based on my own life experience as an athlete being only 5'6" and today weighing 155 lbs (I weighed considerably less in my youth and am now well into my 60s). For many years I competed against athletes who were FAR taller and infinitely stronger than I was in sports such as baseball, softball, volleyball, running cross country, and in other athletic activities. Often enough I got my ass kicked on the playing field. But never once did I whine about it. Instead, when I retired from actively playing, I became a coach and trained athletes who were twice my size for well over twenty years winning several championships. Thus, I used my smarts to overcome the disadvantages you are whining about. That's what winning athletes do.

Caster is full of natural testosterone that works exactly like anabolic steroids, except that in that case you have a convenient excuse + political correctness pretense to defend ''oppressed'' minority - too much of a natural help to make it fair vs those who are biologically standard. These are not the same disadvantages that you're talking about.

It actually looks (when she's not taking testosterone-suppressing drugs) that she's clearly restraining herself from running even better times. Caster knows well that she'd not be able to trick any possible apologist or get sympathy if she ran 1:50 on 800 metres. That would spark enough controversy to never let her to compete as a woman.



''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''


That's the lamest counterargument ever found. Because her musculoskeletal shape, biological structure has nothing to do with her race and people outlook on it have nothing to do with racism - Caster is manly and seen as manly guy due to her possession of internal testes that work not because of our white-centric prejudice towards it.

People don't complain about some height advantage / disadvantage of people from different parts of the world because no one forces Asian athletes to compete with those from the West in some particular discipline, they on the other hand excel in some other disciplines where their possibly different constitution is an additional asset.
 
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