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Andy T said:
By my reckoning , Court leads 12-10 (reference: the stats in this thread) in encounters from 1968 on! Declan, how do you reconcile that fact with your comment that,
"once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact." Even if you take into account 1966, the score is 12-12.

Plus, in direct confrontations in Grand Slam events, the score is Court 6, King 4. At Wimbledon, their H2H is 3-2 in Court's favour.

I've always read that their head-to-head finished at 22-13. In "We Have Come A Long way Baby" Billie Jean says 'After losing to me in the first round of Wimbledon in 1962, she beat me fourteen straight times during the next four years. But once I got my game together in 1966, when I was twenty-two, I had the edge. Of our last twenty matches, I won twelve'. And Court may lead Billie Jean 3-2 at Wimbledon, but whose record there would you rather have?!
 

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We've established that King's stats contradict the acceptedl H2H count. They both can't be right. If Court beat King 14 straight times, then she won at least 26 matches (we've counted 21 with a streak of 9, so 5 more are out there somewhere). King says she won 12 of their last twenty. Court's last 8 victories run from 1970-1973 and in that period, we have 6 victories for King. So there must be 6 more King victories out there. 5 more for Court and six more for King would make a H2H of 26-18.

Of course BJK's 6 Wimbledon titles (those won in 1967 and 1972 were when Court was absent) are more impressive than Court's 3. Court leads at Forest Hills and Roland Garros, however.
 

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Andy T said:
These are the only results I have, guys.
Any results from the annals of history are very welcomed indeed. Given Billie Jean King's considerable influence on current perceptions of tennis history (or should I say herstory), digging through the old records is quite often revealing.

I've actually written to Margaret Court Ministries (without reply) requesting a complete list of her career tournament wins to forward to the International Tennis Hall of Fame. She may not have maintained such a compilation.

Tennisvideos- surely with the dedication of Margaret Court Arena a short while ago, there must be a comprehensive list of her tournament wins, at least from 1959-1968 (Amateur)?
 

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alfajeffster said:
Any results from the annals of history are very welcomed indeed. Given Billie Jean King's considerable influence on current perceptions of tennis history (or should I say herstory), digging through the old records is quite often revealing.

I've actually written to Margaret Court Ministries (without reply) requesting a complete list of her career tournament wins to forward to the International Tennis Hall of Fame. She may not have maintained such a list.

Tennisvideos- surely with the decidation of Margaret Court Arena a short while ago, there must be a comprehensive list of her tournament wins, at least from 1959-1968 (Amateur)?
I wrote to Sue Barker a few years ago after a query on the old website regarding the number of tournaments she'd won! Like you I didn't hear back.

A problem that comes up when trawling through old magazines is that quite often they don't differentiate between officially sanctioned tournaments and exhibitions. (This applies to all results, not just Court/King).
 

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Andy T said:
We've established that King's stats contradict the acceptedl H2H count. They both can't be right. If Court beat King 14 straight times, then she won at least 26 matches (we've counted 21 with a streak of 9, so 5 more are out there somewhere). King says she won 12 of their last twenty. Court's last 8 victories run from 1970-1973 and in that period, we have 6 victories for King. So there must be 6 more King victories out there. 5 more for Court and six more for King would make a H2H of 26-18.

Of course BJK's 6 Wimbledon titles (those won in 1967 and 1972 were when Court was absent) are more impressive than Court's 3. Court leads at Forest Hills and Roland Garros, however.

But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)
 

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Declan said:
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)
I think it's obvious from this thread that it's entirely possible to apply these "justification" tactics to anyone's head-to-head. The classic ridiculous justification is when someone says "the set was alot closer than the score"! :lol:

My basic interest in defending Margaret Court's record is based in the media bias Billie Jean King herself has perpetuated over they years, which exists today. How many times have you heard Tracy Austin, Pam Shriver, and any number of "professional commentators" parrot the BJK remark about Margaret Court (on the rare occasion her name comes up): "Yeah, but 11 of those titles were in Australia when nobody played", and then no discussion on exactly how great she really was. She suffers in historical debate because she was a shy, quiet girl, and with Billie Jean still out there with the same enthusiastic and sometimes self-aggrandizing take on history, you can see why I feel the need to balance things- if only in a small tennis chat room. I like Billie Jean King very much- she is one of my all-time favorite tennis players.

Margaret Court's achievements will probably never be equalled. I am 100% behind Martina Navratilova's efforts, but admit that I bristle when career stats are presented in "Open-Era" only fashion, thereby cheating both Billie Jean King and Margaret Court out of their rightful place in the record books.
 

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Whoa hang on! The reason I wrote about court's absences at Wimb in 67 and 72 was because you were comparing Wimbledon titles won, Declan (maybe you were not entirely even handed in picking the one slam where BJK outscored Court??)
I didn't mention King's absence at the US in 70 or at the French in 62, 64 and 73 but neither did I mention Court's absence at RG in 72 or at Forest Hills in 67, 71 and 74. I didn't mention the Aus Open at all.
 

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Andy T said:
Whoa hang on! The reason I wrote about court's absences at Wimb in 67 and 72 was because you were comparing Wimbledon titles won, Declan (maybe you were not entirely even handed in picking the one slam where BJK outscored Court??)
I didn't mention King's absence at the US in 70 or at the French in 62, 64 and 73 but neither did I mention Court's absence at RG in 72 or at Forest Hills in 67, 71 and 74. I didn't mention the Aus Open at all.
P.S.- you also forgot to mention Margaret's 3 out of 4 majors in 62, 65, 69, and 73 (4 titles away from an additional 4 Grand Slams), whereas Billie Jean could only muster 3 of the 4 majors once in her illustrious career- but I digress! :lol:
 

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Mark36 said:
cat fight, cat fight...this is getting fun! :tape:
Almost as fun as a blindfolded lesbian in a fish market... :lol:
 

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Boys, I only do catfights if I can wear shoulderpads and be Joan Collins/Alexis.
 

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"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
 
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tennisvideos said:
"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
Nice post, Jan accomplishments are never hugely recognised but she was defineitly world class. Any info that you have about Jan would be most appreciated Tennisvideos :)
 

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alfajeffster said:
P.S.- you also forgot to mention Margaret's 3 out of 4 majors in 62, 65, 69, and 73 (4 titles away from an additional 4 Grand Slams), whereas Billie Jean could only muster 3 of the 4 majors once in her illustrious career- but I digress! :lol:
You forgot to mention that King only played the Australian Open 3 times during her prime and the French 5 times and it would have been almost impossible to win 3 out of 4 in her career. I digress to add that when King entered the Wimbledon and U.S. Open, she won more titles than Court.
 

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tennisvideos said:
"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
Jan Lehane entered five straight Wimbledons from 1960 to 1964; she was seeded 5th in 1963 and 7th the following year. I certainly wasn't denigrating her. I merely used her name as an illustration of the level of entry in the Australian Championships of the early Sixties. The financial implications of overseas travel in those days were equally applicable to players travelling TO Australia from overseas. This changed progressively throughout the sixties, however.
 

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Jan had a 2hb, didn't she? Didn't she suffer a serious injury quite early in her career on one of those early trips to Europe, which effectively set her back quite a lot.

(here's the olive branch - Declan) If we take Wim + US titles as a better gauge of greatness than the 4 GS events ( dodgy logic I know as not all the top players went to NY every year in the 60s), we get:

Navratilova 13
Graf 12
King 10
Evert 9
Court 8
Bueno 7
Venus 4
Serena 4
Davenport 2
Seles 2
Austin 2
Goolagong 2
Wade 2
Hingis 2
...
 

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Andy T said:
Jan had a 2hb, didn't she? Didn't she suffer a serious injury quite early in her career on one of those early trips to Europe, which effectively set her back quite a lot.

(here's the olive branch - Declan) If we take Wim + US titles as a better gauge of greatness than the 4 GS events ( dodgy logic I know as not all the top players went to NY every year in the 60s), we get:

Navratilova 13
Graf 12
King 10
Evert 9
Court 8
Bueno 7
Venus 4
Serena 4
Davenport 2
Seles 2
Austin 2
Goolagong 2
Wade 2
Hingis 2
...
Certainly from the 80s onwards all the Grand Slams are of equal status, but as we've established the draws of the French and Australian, for various reasons, were certainly not always on a par in the past. Who's to say if King knew she'd win the French, Australian and US titles in 1972 she'd make sure she'd have entered the Australian first at the start of the year! But hey, that means Virginia Wade would now probably 'only' have two Slams, and I wouldn't want that!!!
 

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Declan said:
Jan Lehane entered five straight Wimbledons from 1960 to 1964; she was seeded 5th in 1963 and 7th the following year. I certainly wasn't denigrating her. I merely used her name as an illustration of the level of entry in the Australian Championships of the early Sixties. The financial implications of overseas travel in those days were equally applicable to players travelling TO Australia from overseas. This changed progressively throughout the sixties, however.

Jan also returned to Wimbledon as Jan O'Neill in 1967, when she defeated the 4th seed Francosie Durr en-route to the round of 16.
 

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It's a little surprising that she didn't go down under at Christmas 72-73 to try and make it four in a row. She was so committed to the VS tour at that point, though. I see she entered San Francisco in mid-Jan but withdrew because of a wrist injury. Maybe she was in a bad way physically after such a
 
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