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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Not sure how we'll try this-if anyone finds results please post!

Bueno, Casals, Court, Durr. Goolagong
Jones,King, Richey, Turner, Wade.

Decided to add the Gong since she's so popular and most of her results are pre 1977 and not on Tennis Corner or the ITF.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Court vs. King


Here's what ww know so far



1962

Moffit 1-6 6-3 7-5. Wimbledon 2R. Grass
Smith 6-4 6-2. Merion SF Grass
Smith 6-3 6-4. Orange SF Grass


1963
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon F Grass

1964
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon SF Grass
SMITH 6-2 6-3 Federation Cup F Grass
Smith 6-4 6-3 Sydney F Grass

1965
SMITH 6-1 8-6 Australian Ch SF Grass
SMITH 6-4 8-6 Federation Cup F Grass
SMITH 8-6 7-5 US Champs F Grass

1966
King 6-3 6-2 South African F Hard
KING 6-3 6-3 Wimbledon SF Grass

* Court retires for the season of 1967*

1968
King 6-1 6-4 Perth F Grass
KING 6-1 6-2 Australian Ch F Grass

1969
COURT 6-4 6-1 Australian Ch F Grass
KING 8-6 6-8 6-4. Las Vegas SF Hard ?
COURT 6-3 6-3 Bristol UK F Grass

1970
King 6-2 4-6 6-3 Sydney F Grass
Court 6-3 7-6 (14-12) Philadelphia F Indoor
Court 6-4 6-4 Dallas F (My Dallas score is 1-6 6-2 11-9! Indoor
King 6-4 2-6 6-2 Durban F Hard
Court 6-4 1-6 6-3. South African F Hard
Court 14-12 11-9. Wimbledon F Grass
* Court off again on maternity leave *

1971
Court 6-3 3-6 6-3 Queens F Grass
King 6-2 7-5. Hoylake SF Grass

1972
Court 6-4 6-1 Newport F Grass
KING 6-4 6-4 US Champs SF Grass
King 6-2 6-2 Charlotte F Clay
Court 6-4 6-1 Berkeley F Hard
King 7-6 (5-3) 6-3 Phoenix F Hard

1973
KING 6-7 7-6 6-3. Indianapolis Indoors Feb 25
Court 6-2 4-6 6-4 Chicago F Indoor
Court 6-2 6-4 Boston F Indoor
Court 6-3 4-6 6-2 Nashville F Clay-?


21-13 in favor of Court so far.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
1967

Perth SF Durr d. Richey 3-6 7-5 6-3
F Durr d. Casals 4-6 7-5 6-3

Tasmanian QF Turner d. Durr 6-8 6-2 6-2
SF Turner d. Casals 6-1 6-3
F richey d. Turner 6-4 6-2

Aussie QF Turner d. Durr 6-1 10-8
SF urner d. Casals 4-6 6-1 6-4
F Richey d. Turner 6-1 6-4


1970

Sydney-grass
1R Durr d. Goolagong 6-2 6-3
QF Wade d. Durr 6-4 6-3
SF King d. Wade 6-3 6-3
Court d. Casals 6-1 6-4
F King d. Court 6-2 4-6 6-3

South Africa-hard
2R Wade d. Durr 6-1 3-6 6-2
QF Casals d. Jones 6-2 6-2
SF King d. Casals 6-3 6-2
Court d. Wade 7-5 6-1
F Court d. King 6-4 1-6 6-3
 

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Thanks for the info so far Rollo... I have lots of magazines from the 60s if you want me to look through any particular ones that you may not have.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Tennisvideos:) I'm weak on 1966 and 1970-but any months will help even if I already have them.

Poor Durr must have been underseeded indeed to get such toughies early on. 1968 and 69 were poor years for Frankie-maybe she had other things going on!
 

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Rollo said:
Court vs. King


Here's what ww know so far



1962

Moffit 1-6 6-3 7-5. Wimbledon 2R. Grass
Smith 6-4 6-2. Merion SF Grass
Smith 6-3 6-4. Orange SF Grass


1963
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon F Grass

1964
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon SF Grass
SMITH 6-2 6-3 Federation Cup F Grass
Smith 6-4 6-3 Sydney F Grass

1965
SMITH 6-1 8-6 Australian Ch SF Grass
SMITH 6-4 8-6 Federation Cup F Grass
SMITH 8-6 7-5 US Champs F Grass

1966
King 6-3 6-2 South African F Hard
KING 6-3 6-3 Wimbledon SF Grass

* Court retires for the season of 1967*

1968
King 6-1 6-4 Perth F Grass
KING 6-1 6-2 Australian Ch F Grass

1969
COURT 6-4 6-1 Australian Ch F Grass
KING 8-6 6-8 6-4. Las Vegas SF Hard ?
COURT 6-3 6-3 Bristol UK F Grass

1970
King 6-2 4-6 6-3 Sydney F Grass
Court 6-3 7-6 (14-12) Philadelphia F Indoor
Court 6-4 6-4 Dallas F (My Dallas score is 1-6 6-2 11-9! Indoor
King 6-4 2-6 6-2 Durban F Hard
Court 6-4 1-6 6-3. South African F Hard
Court 14-12 11-9. Wimbledon F Grass
* Court off again on maternity leave *

1971
Court 6-3 3-6 6-3 Queens F Grass
King 6-2 7-5. Hoylake SF Grass

1972
Court 6-4 6-1 Newport F Grass
KING 6-4 6-4 US Champs SF Grass
King 6-2 6-2 Charlotte F Clay
Court 6-4 6-1 Berkeley F Hard
King 7-6 (5-3) 6-3 Phoenix F Hard

1973
KING 6-7 7-6 6-3. Indianapolis Indoors Feb 25
Court 6-2 4-6 6-4 Chicago F Indoor
Court 6-2 6-4 Boston F Indoor
Court 6-3 4-6 6-2 Nashville F Clay-?


21-13 in favor of Court so far.
Thanks Rollo! One note: the *Court off again on maternity leave* should be after the 2 1971 matches, as she played 1971 (won Australian over Goolagong) all the way past Wimbledon and went on maternity leave shortly thereafter. Thanks again- you're a wealth of knowledge, and must have inked fingers from flipping through all those old magazines!
 

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Interesting that Court was able to defeat Billie Jean in their first match post-return after childbirth in 1972. (Newport final). Didn't the Court supporters point out that Billie Jean's successful '72 was primarily due to first Court's absence then struggle to regain fitness on her return?! What struggle?!! That makes King's 1972 US Open victory over Court even more valid.

I notice they played 5 times in under two months - Newport, US Open, Charlotte, Oakland and Phoenix. (Did they ever play so frequently in such a short space of time?) They won alternate matches with King leading 3-2 - so to me that suggests Court WAS back to full fitness pretty readily.
 

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Declan said:
Interesting that Court was able to defeat Billie Jean in their first match post-return after childbirth in 1972. (Newport final). Didn't the Court supporters point out that Billie Jean's successful '72 was primarily due to first Court's absence then struggle to regain fitness on her return?! What struggle?!! That makes King's 1972 US Open victory over Court even more valid.

I notice they played 5 times in under two months - Newport, US Open, Charlotte, Oakland and Phoenix. (Did they ever play so frequently in such a short space of time?) They won alternate matches with King leading 3-2 - so to me that suggests Court WAS back to full fitness pretty readily.
With Margaret Court (and yes, I support her tennis achievements, but not her current religious/political agendas, I'm able to separate them in my mind) we have a very unique tennis player for one very huge reason. Margaret Smith was born (and is) a natural left-hander. Since she was forced to learn to play right-handed, her game is not based on natural hand-eye coordination in shot production. Watching the scant video still remaining of her play, it is evident in her groundstrokes and serve that she needed lots of match play to reach peak performance. I compare her with Ivan Lendl in this respect. If you look at her in action against Goolagong, Bueno, or King, you can see which player flows with beautiful tennis. Margaret needed to build up her attack. Players like Goolagong and Bueno could step out on the court after a long break and string together breathtaking winners.

A good King-Court head to head comparison in this regard is to compare their matches in 1968 and 1971. Both times Madge was returning to the tour and getting much-needed competitive matches under her belt, and then in 1969-70 and 1973 (when the machine was a well-oiled machine) she dominated King.
 

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alfajeffster said:
With Margaret Court (and yes, I support her tennis achievements, but not her current religious/political agendas, I'm able to separate them in my mind) we have a very unique tennis player for one very huge reason. Margaret Smith was born (and is) a natural left-hander. Since she was forced to learn to play right-handed, her game is not based on natural hand-eye coordination in shot production. Watching the scant video still remaining of her play, it is evident in her groundstrokes and serve that she needed lots of match play to reach peak performance. I compare her with Ivan Lendl in this respect. If you look at her in action against Goolagong, Bueno, or King, you can see which player flows with beautiful tennis. Margaret needed to build up her attack. Players like Goolagong and Bueno could step out on the court after a long break and string together breathtaking winners.

A good King-Court head to head comparison in this regard is to compare their matches in 1968 and 1971. Both times Madge was returning to the tour and getting much-needed competitive matches under her belt, and then in 1969-70 and 1973 (when the machine was a well-oiled machine) she dominated King.

But aren't you just picking out Court's better years? What's wrong with looking at their 1966 results for instance? No injuries, no pregnacies, no off-court distractions......
 

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What alfa writes makes a lot of sense. It strikes me that she was also a player who needed matches under her belt to feel confident (this goes hand-in-hand with alfa's point); she needed to build up both her attack and her mental toughness. She was supremely fit, that's for sure, and I think she probably was able to recover fitness very quickly. Fitness is only one piece of the puzzle though, there's the technical side and the mental side.
Maybe she clocked up that win straight away because she was fresh and had no pressure whereas BJK had just played through the toughest period of the year and won RG and Wimbledon. She was, I imagine feeling the physical and mental effects of that.
This is all speculation, needless to say...
 

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Declan said:
But aren't you just picking out Court's better years? What's wrong with looking at their 1966 results for instance? No injuries, no pregnacies, no off-court distractions......
No excuses- 1966 was not a good year for Margaret Smith, and she has said so on many occasions. She was burned out and felt she had nothing left to accomplish in tennis, and it showed in her results. I hardly think the 2 times King-Smith met that year are representative of their clashes, especially since Margaret Smith had just won the previous 9 meetings on a trot- without losing a single set, I might add.
 

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Both King and Court say in their respective autobio's that King's losing streak 62-65 was 14 matches long, not the 9 we have managed to find so far.

King led in their h2h in 2 years: 66 and 68, the period in which King was undisputedly the world's top player. In every other year it was Court who came out on top.

I wish I could remember where I read it but one very well known writer - Tingay or Tinling maybe - wrote something like this (I'm paraphrasing):
Court was an exceptional athlete who was a good tennis player and king was an exceptional tennis player who was a good athlete.

I always link Court and Graf for their physical athleticism, King and Navratilova for their technical ball skills, Seles and Evert for their determination and Bueno and Goolagong for their natural talent.
 

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Andy T said:
Court was an exceptional athlete who was a good tennis player and king was an exceptional tennis player who was a good athlete.

I always link Court and Graf for their physical athleticism, King and Navratilova for their technical ball skills, Seles and Evert for their determination and Bueno and Goolagong for their natural talent.
Very good analogy, Andy! Can you imagine how good Margaret Court would have been had she been able to learn tennis as a right-handed player?

Another favorite quote of mine comes from the great Martina Navratilova:

"If Monica Seles had Steffi's serve, we'd all be outa here!"
 

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Love the Martina quote, alfa. I'd love to know what Steff's fastest ever serve was timed at (Monica's and Martina's also).

God, Court would have been lethal with a lefty serve and no doubt an even better volleyer than she already was, too - her reach was incredible. Didn't they call her "The Arm"?

I'm always surprised that she didn't have a better record against Evert (wasn't it 4-9?). I don't think she wrote much about Chrissie in her autobiogs. Evonne had more success against her than she did against BJK too. She was 2 1/2 years older than BJK, wasn't she? That may explain it partly. What do you think?
 

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alfajeffster said:
No excuses- 1966 was not a good year for Margaret Smith, and she has said so on many occasions. She was burned out and felt she had nothing left to accomplish in tennis, and it showed in her results. I hardly think the 2 times King-Smith met that year are representative of their clashes, especially since Margaret Smith had just won the previous 9 meetings on a trot- without losing a single set, I might add.
King has stated many times that 1969 and 1973 were not good years for her, Court has stated that 1966 wasn't a good year for her. When King gave her full attention to tennis in 1965 and went to Australia to learn under Merv Rose she stated that she went to become #1 and that she did. after 1966 King led in 1966 and 1968, Court led in 1969 and 1970, both tied in 1971, King led in 1972 and Court led in 1973, both won 12 majors during that time and about as many doubles and mixed. I always debate people about Steffi Grafs record because I felt she won many titles by defaut. She didn't have a major rival during many of her titles where Hart, Dupont, Betz, Brough had each other, Maureen didn't have a major rival during her run because she was just that much better and add in the fact that Brough, Dupont were older and a bit pass their primes where Hart was just dominated by Maureen and Fry hadn't reached her potential. Fry had Gibson, Gibson dominated for two years without a main rival, Bueno had Hard and Court had Hard(early years), Bueno, King, Goolagong and Evert. I can go on and on and the bottom line is that Graf had Seles for a short time and Sabatini and Sanchez were her closest rivals; however, they don't measure up to most of the players I mentioned above. Note that Navratilova still managed to beat Graf well past her prime!
 

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macn said:
King has stated many times that 1969 and 1973 were not good years for her, Court has stated that 1966 wasn't a good year for her. When King gave her full attention to tennis in 1965 and went to Australia to learn under Merv Rose she stated that she went to become #1 and that she did.
And she promptly lost the World #1 ranking to Margaret Court when Madge returned to form in 1969, and again in 1973. It's really a shame that Margaret's 1973 year is so shrouded in the Bobby Riggs debacle- she dominated in a year which is arguably the best year for competition ever. Goolagong, Evert, King, Wade, Casals and many other all-court players at the top of their games. I'd have loved to see what would have happened in a Court/King Wimbledon final that year, but we have Chrissie to thank for that.

To me, both players have their reasons for less-than-dominating seasons and years, but it's hard to argue with a 21-13 winning record. They played more often than most of the greats you listed, and Margaret dominated the last year they both played each other.

Question: It is often remarked (especially by WTA founders) that Margaret Court had a reputation for chasing the dollar. She played quite a few exhibitions for major cash between 1969-1977, and was basically suckered into the Riggs Mother's Day Masacre for cash. Why is it Billie Jean never endeavored to organize an exhibition tour with Margaret or any of her other rivals? Billie only started mentioning this lament after SHE retired permanently.
 

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alfajeffster said:
And she promptly lost the World #1 ranking to Margaret Court when Madge returned to form in 1969, and again in 1973. It's really a shame that Margaret's 1973 year is so shrouded in the Bobby Riggs debacle- she dominated in a year which is arguably the best year for competition ever. Goolagong, Evert, King, Wade, Casals and many other all-court players at the top of their games. I'd have loved to see what would have happened in a Court/King Wimbledon final that year, but we have Chrissie to thank for that.

To me, both players have their reasons for less-than-dominating seasons and years, but it's hard to argue with a 21-13 winning record. They played more often than most of the greats you listed, and Margaret dominated the last year they both played each other.

Question: It is often remarked (especially by WTA founders) that Margaret Court had a reputation for chasing the dollar. She played quite a few exhibitions for major cash between 1969-1977, and was basically suckered into the Riggs Mother's Day Masacre for cash. Why is it Billie Jean never endeavored to organize an exhibition tour with Margaret or any of her other rivals? Billie only started mentioning this lament after SHE retired permanently.
You keep repeating the fact that Margaret had to return to form to dominate; however, When the point that King's form didn't take place until 1966 is stated you tend to ignore that fact. Most of Margaret's wins came between 1962 to 1965 where King wasn't nearly the player she became and King won more often after 1966. I forgot, we have to make up excuses for Kings wins over Court after 1966! just I made up the excuse for Court's wins over King!
 

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macn said:
You keep repeating the fact that Margaret had to return to form to dominate; however, When the point that King's form didn't take place until 1966 is stated you tend to ignore that fact. Most of Margaret's wins came between 1962 to 1965 where King wasn't nearly the player she became and King won more often after 1966. I forgot, we have to make up excuses for Kings wins over Court after 1966! just I made up the excuse for Court's wins over King!
That is SO true! Of course Court dominated when she was a full-time tennis player and Billie Jean King played part-time while she was at university. But once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact. Also I can't believe how excuses are repeatedly offered up on here for King's wins - Margaret getting married, retired, or pregnant, or post-pregnancy - whereas Billie Jean had equally valid justifications for her disappointing seasons, primarily her severe knee problems which blighted three of her prime years, plus the emotional -and physical - strain of getting the Women's tour up-and-running. Also, somebody else on this forum pointed out that back in the day Wimbledon was the premier tournament, far and away - it was head-and-shoulders above the other Slams in prestige and importance. And as I don't need to point out, King won six and Court three - double the amount, not even close!
 

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By my reckoning , Court leads 12-10 (reference: the stats in this thread) in encounters from 1968 on! Declan, how do you reconcile that fact with your comment that,
"once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact." Even if you take into account 1966, the score is 12-12.

Plus, in direct confrontations in Grand Slam events, the score is Court 6, King 4. At Wimbledon, their H2H is 3-2 in Court's favour.
 

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Head to Heads - Bueo/King/Court

Bueno vs King 1-7
1963
KING 62 75 Wimbledon QF

1965
BUENO 64 57 63 Wimbledon SF
KING 62 63 US Champs SF

1966
KING 63 36 61 Wimbledon F
1967
King 75 57 62 Johannesburg RSA F
1968
KING 64 64 French Ch. QF
KING 36 64 62 US Champs SF

1977
KING 62 75 Wimbledon R16


Bueno vs Court 4-14

1960
SMITH-COURT 75 36 64 Australian Ch QF

1962
Smith-Court 86 57 64 Rome ITA F
Smith-Court 3 sets Bristol UK F
SMITH-COURT 68 63 64 US Champs SF

1963
SMITH-COURT 57 61 62 French Ch. F
BUENO 63 64 US Champs F


1964
Smith-Court 60 ?6 6? Hilversum NTH F
Smith-Court 61 61 Hamburg GER F
Bueno/Smith-Court 35 div. Beckenham UK F
BUENO 64 79 63 Wimbledon F

1965
SMITH-COURT 57 63 52 Australian Ch F
Smith-Court unknown Beckenham UK F
Smith-Court unknown Manchester UK F
SMITH-COURT 64 75 Wimbledon F

1966
Smith-Court 86 63 Hamburg GER F

1968
Smith-Court 62 62 Boston MA F
Smith-Court 64 75 Berkeley CA F
Bueno 75 36 63 Manchester MA F
BUENO 75 26 63 US Champs QF

1969
Smith-Court walkover Caracas VEN F

These are the only results I have, guys.
 
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