60s and 70s head to head - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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60s and 70s head to head

Not sure how we'll try this-if anyone finds results please post!

Bueno, Casals, Court, Durr. Goolagong
Jones,King, Richey, Turner, Wade.

Decided to add the Gong since she's so popular and most of her results are pre 1977 and not on Tennis Corner or the ITF.

Last edited by Rollo; Nov 26th, 2003 at 12:12 PM.
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post #2 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Court vs. King


Here's what ww know so far



1962

Moffit 1-6 6-3 7-5. Wimbledon 2R. Grass
Smith 6-4 6-2. Merion SF Grass
Smith 6-3 6-4. Orange SF Grass


1963
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon F Grass

1964
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon SF Grass
SMITH 6-2 6-3 Federation Cup F Grass
Smith 6-4 6-3 Sydney F Grass

1965
SMITH 6-1 8-6 Australian Ch SF Grass
SMITH 6-4 8-6 Federation Cup F Grass
SMITH 8-6 7-5 US Champs F Grass

1966
King 6-3 6-2 South African F Hard
KING 6-3 6-3 Wimbledon SF Grass

* Court retires for the season of 1967*

1968
King 6-1 6-4 Perth F Grass
KING 6-1 6-2 Australian Ch F Grass

1969
COURT 6-4 6-1 Australian Ch F Grass
KING 8-6 6-8 6-4. Las Vegas SF Hard ?
COURT 6-3 6-3 Bristol UK F Grass

1970
King 6-2 4-6 6-3 Sydney F Grass
Court 6-3 7-6 (14-12) Philadelphia F Indoor
Court 6-4 6-4 Dallas F (My Dallas score is 1-6 6-2 11-9! Indoor
King 6-4 2-6 6-2 Durban F Hard
Court 6-4 1-6 6-3. South African F Hard
Court 14-12 11-9. Wimbledon F Grass
* Court off again on maternity leave *

1971
Court 6-3 3-6 6-3 Queens F Grass
King 6-2 7-5. Hoylake SF Grass

1972
Court 6-4 6-1 Newport F Grass
KING 6-4 6-4 US Champs SF Grass
King 6-2 6-2 Charlotte F Clay
Court 6-4 6-1 Berkeley F Hard
King 7-6 (5-3) 6-3 Phoenix F Hard

1973
KING 6-7 7-6 6-3. Indianapolis Indoors Feb 25
Court 6-2 4-6 6-4 Chicago F Indoor
Court 6-2 6-4 Boston F Indoor
Court 6-3 4-6 6-2 Nashville F Clay-?


21-13 in favor of Court so far.
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post #3 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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1967

Perth SF Durr d. Richey 3-6 7-5 6-3
F Durr d. Casals 4-6 7-5 6-3

Tasmanian QF Turner d. Durr 6-8 6-2 6-2
SF Turner d. Casals 6-1 6-3
F richey d. Turner 6-4 6-2

Aussie QF Turner d. Durr 6-1 10-8
SF urner d. Casals 4-6 6-1 6-4
F Richey d. Turner 6-1 6-4


1970

Sydney-grass
1R Durr d. Goolagong 6-2 6-3
QF Wade d. Durr 6-4 6-3
SF King d. Wade 6-3 6-3
Court d. Casals 6-1 6-4
F King d. Court 6-2 4-6 6-3

South Africa-hard
2R Wade d. Durr 6-1 3-6 6-2
QF Casals d. Jones 6-2 6-2
SF King d. Casals 6-3 6-2
Court d. Wade 7-5 6-1
F Court d. King 6-4 1-6 6-3

Last edited by Rollo; Dec 13th, 2003 at 11:29 PM.
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post #4 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 12:11 PM
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Thanks for the info so far Rollo... I have lots of magazines from the 60s if you want me to look through any particular ones that you may not have.
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post #5 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Tennisvideos I'm weak on 1966 and 1970-but any months will help even if I already have them.

Poor Durr must have been underseeded indeed to get such toughies early on. 1968 and 69 were poor years for Frankie-maybe she had other things going on!
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post #6 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Court vs. King


Here's what ww know so far



1962

Moffit 1-6 6-3 7-5. Wimbledon 2R. Grass
Smith 6-4 6-2. Merion SF Grass
Smith 6-3 6-4. Orange SF Grass


1963
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon F Grass

1964
SMITH 6-3 6-4 Wimbledon SF Grass
SMITH 6-2 6-3 Federation Cup F Grass
Smith 6-4 6-3 Sydney F Grass

1965
SMITH 6-1 8-6 Australian Ch SF Grass
SMITH 6-4 8-6 Federation Cup F Grass
SMITH 8-6 7-5 US Champs F Grass

1966
King 6-3 6-2 South African F Hard
KING 6-3 6-3 Wimbledon SF Grass

* Court retires for the season of 1967*

1968
King 6-1 6-4 Perth F Grass
KING 6-1 6-2 Australian Ch F Grass

1969
COURT 6-4 6-1 Australian Ch F Grass
KING 8-6 6-8 6-4. Las Vegas SF Hard ?
COURT 6-3 6-3 Bristol UK F Grass

1970
King 6-2 4-6 6-3 Sydney F Grass
Court 6-3 7-6 (14-12) Philadelphia F Indoor
Court 6-4 6-4 Dallas F (My Dallas score is 1-6 6-2 11-9! Indoor
King 6-4 2-6 6-2 Durban F Hard
Court 6-4 1-6 6-3. South African F Hard
Court 14-12 11-9. Wimbledon F Grass
* Court off again on maternity leave *

1971
Court 6-3 3-6 6-3 Queens F Grass
King 6-2 7-5. Hoylake SF Grass

1972
Court 6-4 6-1 Newport F Grass
KING 6-4 6-4 US Champs SF Grass
King 6-2 6-2 Charlotte F Clay
Court 6-4 6-1 Berkeley F Hard
King 7-6 (5-3) 6-3 Phoenix F Hard

1973
KING 6-7 7-6 6-3. Indianapolis Indoors Feb 25
Court 6-2 4-6 6-4 Chicago F Indoor
Court 6-2 6-4 Boston F Indoor
Court 6-3 4-6 6-2 Nashville F Clay-?


21-13 in favor of Court so far.
Thanks Rollo! One note: the *Court off again on maternity leave* should be after the 2 1971 matches, as she played 1971 (won Australian over Goolagong) all the way past Wimbledon and went on maternity leave shortly thereafter. Thanks again- you're a wealth of knowledge, and must have inked fingers from flipping through all those old magazines!

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #7 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 02:15 PM
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Interesting that Court was able to defeat Billie Jean in their first match post-return after childbirth in 1972. (Newport final). Didn't the Court supporters point out that Billie Jean's successful '72 was primarily due to first Court's absence then struggle to regain fitness on her return?! What struggle?!! That makes King's 1972 US Open victory over Court even more valid.

I notice they played 5 times in under two months - Newport, US Open, Charlotte, Oakland and Phoenix. (Did they ever play so frequently in such a short space of time?) They won alternate matches with King leading 3-2 - so to me that suggests Court WAS back to full fitness pretty readily.
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post #8 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
Interesting that Court was able to defeat Billie Jean in their first match post-return after childbirth in 1972. (Newport final). Didn't the Court supporters point out that Billie Jean's successful '72 was primarily due to first Court's absence then struggle to regain fitness on her return?! What struggle?!! That makes King's 1972 US Open victory over Court even more valid.

I notice they played 5 times in under two months - Newport, US Open, Charlotte, Oakland and Phoenix. (Did they ever play so frequently in such a short space of time?) They won alternate matches with King leading 3-2 - so to me that suggests Court WAS back to full fitness pretty readily.
With Margaret Court (and yes, I support her tennis achievements, but not her current religious/political agendas, I'm able to separate them in my mind) we have a very unique tennis player for one very huge reason. Margaret Smith was born (and is) a natural left-hander. Since she was forced to learn to play right-handed, her game is not based on natural hand-eye coordination in shot production. Watching the scant video still remaining of her play, it is evident in her groundstrokes and serve that she needed lots of match play to reach peak performance. I compare her with Ivan Lendl in this respect. If you look at her in action against Goolagong, Bueno, or King, you can see which player flows with beautiful tennis. Margaret needed to build up her attack. Players like Goolagong and Bueno could step out on the court after a long break and string together breathtaking winners.

A good King-Court head to head comparison in this regard is to compare their matches in 1968 and 1971. Both times Madge was returning to the tour and getting much-needed competitive matches under her belt, and then in 1969-70 and 1973 (when the machine was a well-oiled machine) she dominated King.

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #9 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfajeffster
With Margaret Court (and yes, I support her tennis achievements, but not her current religious/political agendas, I'm able to separate them in my mind) we have a very unique tennis player for one very huge reason. Margaret Smith was born (and is) a natural left-hander. Since she was forced to learn to play right-handed, her game is not based on natural hand-eye coordination in shot production. Watching the scant video still remaining of her play, it is evident in her groundstrokes and serve that she needed lots of match play to reach peak performance. I compare her with Ivan Lendl in this respect. If you look at her in action against Goolagong, Bueno, or King, you can see which player flows with beautiful tennis. Margaret needed to build up her attack. Players like Goolagong and Bueno could step out on the court after a long break and string together breathtaking winners.

A good King-Court head to head comparison in this regard is to compare their matches in 1968 and 1971. Both times Madge was returning to the tour and getting much-needed competitive matches under her belt, and then in 1969-70 and 1973 (when the machine was a well-oiled machine) she dominated King.

But aren't you just picking out Court's better years? What's wrong with looking at their 1966 results for instance? No injuries, no pregnacies, no off-court distractions......
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post #10 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 02:55 PM
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What alfa writes makes a lot of sense. It strikes me that she was also a player who needed matches under her belt to feel confident (this goes hand-in-hand with alfa's point); she needed to build up both her attack and her mental toughness. She was supremely fit, that's for sure, and I think she probably was able to recover fitness very quickly. Fitness is only one piece of the puzzle though, there's the technical side and the mental side.
Maybe she clocked up that win straight away because she was fresh and had no pressure whereas BJK had just played through the toughest period of the year and won RG and Wimbledon. She was, I imagine feeling the physical and mental effects of that.
This is all speculation, needless to say...
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post #11 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
But aren't you just picking out Court's better years? What's wrong with looking at their 1966 results for instance? No injuries, no pregnacies, no off-court distractions......
No excuses- 1966 was not a good year for Margaret Smith, and she has said so on many occasions. She was burned out and felt she had nothing left to accomplish in tennis, and it showed in her results. I hardly think the 2 times King-Smith met that year are representative of their clashes, especially since Margaret Smith had just won the previous 9 meetings on a trot- without losing a single set, I might add.

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #12 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 03:41 PM
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Both King and Court say in their respective autobio's that King's losing streak 62-65 was 14 matches long, not the 9 we have managed to find so far.

King led in their h2h in 2 years: 66 and 68, the period in which King was undisputedly the world's top player. In every other year it was Court who came out on top.

I wish I could remember where I read it but one very well known writer - Tingay or Tinling maybe - wrote something like this (I'm paraphrasing):
Court was an exceptional athlete who was a good tennis player and king was an exceptional tennis player who was a good athlete.

I always link Court and Graf for their physical athleticism, King and Navratilova for their technical ball skills, Seles and Evert for their determination and Bueno and Goolagong for their natural talent.
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post #13 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
Court was an exceptional athlete who was a good tennis player and king was an exceptional tennis player who was a good athlete.

I always link Court and Graf for their physical athleticism, King and Navratilova for their technical ball skills, Seles and Evert for their determination and Bueno and Goolagong for their natural talent.
Very good analogy, Andy! Can you imagine how good Margaret Court would have been had she been able to learn tennis as a right-handed player?

Another favorite quote of mine comes from the great Martina Navratilova:

"If Monica Seles had Steffi's serve, we'd all be outa here!"

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #14 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 04:27 PM
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Love the Martina quote, alfa. I'd love to know what Steff's fastest ever serve was timed at (Monica's and Martina's also).

God, Court would have been lethal with a lefty serve and no doubt an even better volleyer than she already was, too - her reach was incredible. Didn't they call her "The Arm"?

I'm always surprised that she didn't have a better record against Evert (wasn't it 4-9?). I don't think she wrote much about Chrissie in her autobiogs. Evonne had more success against her than she did against BJK too. She was 2 1/2 years older than BJK, wasn't she? That may explain it partly. What do you think?
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post #15 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfajeffster
No excuses- 1966 was not a good year for Margaret Smith, and she has said so on many occasions. She was burned out and felt she had nothing left to accomplish in tennis, and it showed in her results. I hardly think the 2 times King-Smith met that year are representative of their clashes, especially since Margaret Smith had just won the previous 9 meetings on a trot- without losing a single set, I might add.
King has stated many times that 1969 and 1973 were not good years for her, Court has stated that 1966 wasn't a good year for her. When King gave her full attention to tennis in 1965 and went to Australia to learn under Merv Rose she stated that she went to become #1 and that she did. after 1966 King led in 1966 and 1968, Court led in 1969 and 1970, both tied in 1971, King led in 1972 and Court led in 1973, both won 12 majors during that time and about as many doubles and mixed. I always debate people about Steffi Grafs record because I felt she won many titles by defaut. She didn't have a major rival during many of her titles where Hart, Dupont, Betz, Brough had each other, Maureen didn't have a major rival during her run because she was just that much better and add in the fact that Brough, Dupont were older and a bit pass their primes where Hart was just dominated by Maureen and Fry hadn't reached her potential. Fry had Gibson, Gibson dominated for two years without a main rival, Bueno had Hard and Court had Hard(early years), Bueno, King, Goolagong and Evert. I can go on and on and the bottom line is that Graf had Seles for a short time and Sabatini and Sanchez were her closest rivals; however, they don't measure up to most of the players I mentioned above. Note that Navratilova still managed to beat Graf well past her prime!

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