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post #31 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 09:14 PM
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post #32 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 10:12 PM
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"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
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post #33 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2003, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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post #34 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos
"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
Nice post, Jan accomplishments are never hugely recognised but she was defineitly world class. Any info that you have about Jan would be most appreciated Tennisvideos

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post #35 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfajeffster
P.S.- you also forgot to mention Margaret's 3 out of 4 majors in 62, 65, 69, and 73 (4 titles away from an additional 4 Grand Slams), whereas Billie Jean could only muster 3 of the 4 majors once in her illustrious career- but I digress!
You forgot to mention that King only played the Australian Open 3 times during her prime and the French 5 times and it would have been almost impossible to win 3 out of 4 in her career. I digress to add that when King entered the Wimbledon and U.S. Open, she won more titles than Court.

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post #36 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisvideos
"Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)"

Declan - please do not try and denigrate Jan Lehane. Jan was in fact an excellent tennis player who had wins over the world's best including Bueno, Hard, Truman etc. Jan hardly ever travelled outside of Australia as Tennis Australia only started supporting a couple of women on tour in the early 60s. So usually only Margaret or Lesley Turner got sponsored. If any of the other girls got to travel, it was like for an 8 week stint and that was it.

Had Jan Lehane more opportunity to play the world circuit she would have been top 5 without a shadow of a doubt and who knows what she could have accomplished.
Jan Lehane entered five straight Wimbledons from 1960 to 1964; she was seeded 5th in 1963 and 7th the following year. I certainly wasn't denigrating her. I merely used her name as an illustration of the level of entry in the Australian Championships of the early Sixties. The financial implications of overseas travel in those days were equally applicable to players travelling TO Australia from overseas. This changed progressively throughout the sixties, however.
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post #37 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 08:14 AM
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Jan had a 2hb, didn't she? Didn't she suffer a serious injury quite early in her career on one of those early trips to Europe, which effectively set her back quite a lot.

(here's the olive branch - Declan) If we take Wim + US titles as a better gauge of greatness than the 4 GS events ( dodgy logic I know as not all the top players went to NY every year in the 60s), we get:

Navratilova 13
Graf 12
King 10
Evert 9
Court 8
Bueno 7
Venus 4
Serena 4
Davenport 2
Seles 2
Austin 2
Goolagong 2
Wade 2
Hingis 2
...
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post #38 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
Jan had a 2hb, didn't she? Didn't she suffer a serious injury quite early in her career on one of those early trips to Europe, which effectively set her back quite a lot.

(here's the olive branch - Declan) If we take Wim + US titles as a better gauge of greatness than the 4 GS events ( dodgy logic I know as not all the top players went to NY every year in the 60s), we get:

Navratilova 13
Graf 12
King 10
Evert 9
Court 8
Bueno 7
Venus 4
Serena 4
Davenport 2
Seles 2
Austin 2
Goolagong 2
Wade 2
Hingis 2
...
Certainly from the 80s onwards all the Grand Slams are of equal status, but as we've established the draws of the French and Australian, for various reasons, were certainly not always on a par in the past. Who's to say if King knew she'd win the French, Australian and US titles in 1972 she'd make sure she'd have entered the Australian first at the start of the year! But hey, that means Virginia Wade would now probably 'only' have two Slams, and I wouldn't want that!!!
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post #39 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
Jan Lehane entered five straight Wimbledons from 1960 to 1964; she was seeded 5th in 1963 and 7th the following year. I certainly wasn't denigrating her. I merely used her name as an illustration of the level of entry in the Australian Championships of the early Sixties. The financial implications of overseas travel in those days were equally applicable to players travelling TO Australia from overseas. This changed progressively throughout the sixties, however.

Jan also returned to Wimbledon as Jan O'Neill in 1967, when she defeated the 4th seed Francosie Durr en-route to the round of 16.
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post #40 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 11:57 AM
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It's a little surprising that she didn't go down under at Christmas 72-73 to try and make it four in a row. She was so committed to the VS tour at that point, though. I see she entered San Francisco in mid-Jan but withdrew because of a wrist injury. Maybe she was in a bad way physically after such a
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post #41 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 2003, 12:00 PM
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It's a little surprising that she didn't go down under at Christmas 72-73 to try and make it four in a row. She was so committed to the VS tour at that point, though. I see she entered San Francisco in mid-Jan but withdrew because of a wrist injury. Maybe she was in a bad way physically after such a heavy 1972 schedule.
Also, she's very negative about the Australian season in the late 60s in her autobiographies (she says in 65 they had been wonderful but they did not welcome the pro's) - it could be that she took a decision not to go back.
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post #42 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 2003, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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Casals-Wade was quite an interesting rivalry. It was 12-11 in favor of Wade when Virginia won a match in Boston in 1979. Wade calls Rosie her "bete noir" in her autobio.

Rosie called Wade a bad sport for arguing calls more than once. In one match Casals was so pissed she held onto Virginia's hand long after the handshake and wouldn't let go

When told that Casals complained of her behavior Wade replied"
"Rosie is a good sport. I never pretend to be a good sport."


If the stat is right the final tally was in favor of Wade 14-11.

From Tennis corner-missing many matches;

1968-08-26 U.S. Open Grass R16 Virginia Wade 6-4 7-5
1969-05-26 Roland Garros Clay R32 Rosie Casals 5-7 6-3 9-7
1970-08-31 U.S. Open Grass SF Rosie Casals 6-2 6-7 6-2
1975-06-23 Wimbledon Grass R16 Virginia Wade 6-4 4-6 6-4
1977-02-14 Los Angeles Indoor Carpet QF Rosie Casals 6-3 6-3
1977-03-14 Philadelphia Hardcourt QF Rosie Casals 6-4 7-6
1977-06-20 Wimbledon Grass QF Virginia Wade 7-5 6-2
1978-01-16 Houston Indoor Carpet QF Virginia Wade 6-4 6-3
1978-03-27 Oakland Indoor Carpet RR Rosie Casals 7-5 3-6 6-0
1979-02-19 Detroit Indoor Carpet R16 Rosie Casals 6-4 3-6 7-6
1979-03-12 Boston Indoor Carpet R16 Virginia Wade 6-3 7-5
1979-10-22 Tampa Hardcourt R16 Virginia Wade 6-3 7-6
1980-02-11 Oakland Indoor Carpet QF Virginia Wade 6-0 6-2
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post #43 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 2003, 07:51 PM
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A couple more head to heads for the collection - certainly incomplete but it's a start.

Goolagong-Cawley versus King 4-11 (excluding walkovers)

1969
KING 63 61 Australian Champs. R16

1971
GOOLAGONG 64 64 Wimbledon SF

1972

KING 63 63 French Champs. F
King vs Goolagong match unplayed (rain) Nottingham RR
KING 63 63 Wimbledon F

1973
KING 63 67 63 Wimbledon SF

1974
KING 36 63 75 US Champs F
GOOLAGONG 62 46 63 VS Champs SF

1975
King 61 63 Austin TX SF
KING 60 61 Wimbledon F

1976
KING 76 64 Federation Cup F

1978
King 62 63 Kansas City QF
GOOLAGONG (WALKOVER) SE Champs RR

1979
Goolagong 16 64 108 Chichester UK SF
King 64 75 Tokyo JPN F

1980
King 63 60 Detroit MI F
Goolagong 60 63 Carlsbad CA 3rd place play-off



Smith-Court vs Goolagong-Cawley 14-5

1968
SMITH-COURT 63 61 Australian Ch. R16

1970
SMITH-COURT 63 61 Australian Open QF

1971
Goolagong 76 76 Melbourne AUS F
SMITH-COURT 26 76 75 Australian Open F
Smith-Court 36 76 62 Auckland NZL F
Smith-Court 63 61 Johannesburg RSA F
Smith-Court 75 61 Bournemouth UK F
Smith-Court 64 60 Nottingham UK RR
GOOLAGONG 64 61 Wimbledon F
Smith-Court 63 26 63 Dublin IRL F

1972
Smith-Court 36 62 75 Cincinnati OH F
Smith-Court 63 62 Perth AUS F
Smith-Court 63 62 Sydney AUS F*
* (this score and a December date in World of Tennis)
Rollo has the score 46 63 108 and a January 1973 date.
The 63 62 score at Perth leads me to think that Rollo's right and World of Tennis got their knickers in a twist.

1973
SMITH-COURT 64 75 Australian Open F
SMITH-COURT 76 57 62 US Open F

1974
Goolagong 63 75 Sydney AUS F

1975
Goolagong 63 36 63 Detroit MI F
GOOLAGONG 64 64 Wimbledon SF
Smith-Court score unknown Tokyo JPN F**
** inaugural Toray Sillook event, played Sept. 73

Last edited by Andy T; Dec 1st, 2003 at 01:13 PM.
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post #44 of 203 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2003, 04:32 PM
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Excellent Post Rollo, I have many of the 1965 to 70 finals that I will post. I read in Court's book that Bueno beat her 6 times and I can't remember the amount for Court.

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post #45 of 203 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 2003, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Macn

Once we pool all out results together it will be an impressive list. BJK did very well on clay in 1971-even beating old nemesis Nancy Richey. On the other hand Durr beat Billie Jean twice on the dirt that year. It's a shame King didn't enter Roland Garros that year.

None of the top women managed all 4 slams in 1971.
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