60s and 70s head to head - Page 2 - TennisForum.com
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post #16 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macn
King has stated many times that 1969 and 1973 were not good years for her, Court has stated that 1966 wasn't a good year for her. When King gave her full attention to tennis in 1965 and went to Australia to learn under Merv Rose she stated that she went to become #1 and that she did.
And she promptly lost the World #1 ranking to Margaret Court when Madge returned to form in 1969, and again in 1973. It's really a shame that Margaret's 1973 year is so shrouded in the Bobby Riggs debacle- she dominated in a year which is arguably the best year for competition ever. Goolagong, Evert, King, Wade, Casals and many other all-court players at the top of their games. I'd have loved to see what would have happened in a Court/King Wimbledon final that year, but we have Chrissie to thank for that.

To me, both players have their reasons for less-than-dominating seasons and years, but it's hard to argue with a 21-13 winning record. They played more often than most of the greats you listed, and Margaret dominated the last year they both played each other.

Question: It is often remarked (especially by WTA founders) that Margaret Court had a reputation for chasing the dollar. She played quite a few exhibitions for major cash between 1969-1977, and was basically suckered into the Riggs Mother's Day Masacre for cash. Why is it Billie Jean never endeavored to organize an exhibition tour with Margaret or any of her other rivals? Billie only started mentioning this lament after SHE retired permanently.

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #17 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by alfajeffster
And she promptly lost the World #1 ranking to Margaret Court when Madge returned to form in 1969, and again in 1973. It's really a shame that Margaret's 1973 year is so shrouded in the Bobby Riggs debacle- she dominated in a year which is arguably the best year for competition ever. Goolagong, Evert, King, Wade, Casals and many other all-court players at the top of their games. I'd have loved to see what would have happened in a Court/King Wimbledon final that year, but we have Chrissie to thank for that.

To me, both players have their reasons for less-than-dominating seasons and years, but it's hard to argue with a 21-13 winning record. They played more often than most of the greats you listed, and Margaret dominated the last year they both played each other.

Question: It is often remarked (especially by WTA founders) that Margaret Court had a reputation for chasing the dollar. She played quite a few exhibitions for major cash between 1969-1977, and was basically suckered into the Riggs Mother's Day Masacre for cash. Why is it Billie Jean never endeavored to organize an exhibition tour with Margaret or any of her other rivals? Billie only started mentioning this lament after SHE retired permanently.
You keep repeating the fact that Margaret had to return to form to dominate; however, When the point that King's form didn't take place until 1966 is stated you tend to ignore that fact. Most of Margaret's wins came between 1962 to 1965 where King wasn't nearly the player she became and King won more often after 1966. I forgot, we have to make up excuses for Kings wins over Court after 1966! just I made up the excuse for Court's wins over King!

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post #18 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macn
You keep repeating the fact that Margaret had to return to form to dominate; however, When the point that King's form didn't take place until 1966 is stated you tend to ignore that fact. Most of Margaret's wins came between 1962 to 1965 where King wasn't nearly the player she became and King won more often after 1966. I forgot, we have to make up excuses for Kings wins over Court after 1966! just I made up the excuse for Court's wins over King!
That is SO true! Of course Court dominated when she was a full-time tennis player and Billie Jean King played part-time while she was at university. But once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact. Also I can't believe how excuses are repeatedly offered up on here for King's wins - Margaret getting married, retired, or pregnant, or post-pregnancy - whereas Billie Jean had equally valid justifications for her disappointing seasons, primarily her severe knee problems which blighted three of her prime years, plus the emotional -and physical - strain of getting the Women's tour up-and-running. Also, somebody else on this forum pointed out that back in the day Wimbledon was the premier tournament, far and away - it was head-and-shoulders above the other Slams in prestige and importance. And as I don't need to point out, King won six and Court three - double the amount, not even close!
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post #19 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 06:43 PM
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By my reckoning , Court leads 12-10 (reference: the stats in this thread) in encounters from 1968 on! Declan, how do you reconcile that fact with your comment that,
"once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact." Even if you take into account 1966, the score is 12-12.

Plus, in direct confrontations in Grand Slam events, the score is Court 6, King 4. At Wimbledon, their H2H is 3-2 in Court's favour.
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post #20 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 06:58 PM
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Head to Heads - Bueo/King/Court

Bueno vs King 1-7
1963
KING 62 75 Wimbledon QF

1965
BUENO 64 57 63 Wimbledon SF
KING 62 63 US Champs SF

1966
KING 63 36 61 Wimbledon F
1967
King 75 57 62 Johannesburg RSA F
1968
KING 64 64 French Ch. QF
KING 36 64 62 US Champs SF

1977
KING 62 75 Wimbledon R16


Bueno vs Court 4-14

1960
SMITH-COURT 75 36 64 Australian Ch QF

1962
Smith-Court 86 57 64 Rome ITA F
Smith-Court 3 sets Bristol UK F
SMITH-COURT 68 63 64 US Champs SF

1963
SMITH-COURT 57 61 62 French Ch. F
BUENO 63 64 US Champs F


1964
Smith-Court 60 ?6 6? Hilversum NTH F
Smith-Court 61 61 Hamburg GER F
Bueno/Smith-Court 35 div. Beckenham UK F
BUENO 64 79 63 Wimbledon F

1965
SMITH-COURT 57 63 52 Australian Ch F
Smith-Court unknown Beckenham UK F
Smith-Court unknown Manchester UK F
SMITH-COURT 64 75 Wimbledon F

1966
Smith-Court 86 63 Hamburg GER F

1968
Smith-Court 62 62 Boston MA F
Smith-Court 64 75 Berkeley CA F
Bueno 75 36 63 Manchester MA F
BUENO 75 26 63 US Champs QF

1969
Smith-Court walkover Caracas VEN F

These are the only results I have, guys.
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post #21 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
By my reckoning , Court leads 12-10 (reference: the stats in this thread) in encounters from 1968 on! Declan, how do you reconcile that fact with your comment that,
"once Billie Jean devoted herself full-time to tennis, she beat Margaret more than Margaret beat her. Fact." Even if you take into account 1966, the score is 12-12.

Plus, in direct confrontations in Grand Slam events, the score is Court 6, King 4. At Wimbledon, their H2H is 3-2 in Court's favour.

I've always read that their head-to-head finished at 22-13. In "We Have Come A Long way Baby" Billie Jean says 'After losing to me in the first round of Wimbledon in 1962, she beat me fourteen straight times during the next four years. But once I got my game together in 1966, when I was twenty-two, I had the edge. Of our last twenty matches, I won twelve'. And Court may lead Billie Jean 3-2 at Wimbledon, but whose record there would you rather have?!
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post #22 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:20 PM
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We've established that King's stats contradict the acceptedl H2H count. They both can't be right. If Court beat King 14 straight times, then she won at least 26 matches (we've counted 21 with a streak of 9, so 5 more are out there somewhere). King says she won 12 of their last twenty. Court's last 8 victories run from 1970-1973 and in that period, we have 6 victories for King. So there must be 6 more King victories out there. 5 more for Court and six more for King would make a H2H of 26-18.

Of course BJK's 6 Wimbledon titles (those won in 1967 and 1972 were when Court was absent) are more impressive than Court's 3. Court leads at Forest Hills and Roland Garros, however.
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post #23 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
These are the only results I have, guys.
Any results from the annals of history are very welcomed indeed. Given Billie Jean King's considerable influence on current perceptions of tennis history (or should I say herstory), digging through the old records is quite often revealing.

I've actually written to Margaret Court Ministries (without reply) requesting a complete list of her career tournament wins to forward to the International Tennis Hall of Fame. She may not have maintained such a compilation.

Tennisvideos- surely with the dedication of Margaret Court Arena a short while ago, there must be a comprehensive list of her tournament wins, at least from 1959-1968 (Amateur)?

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #24 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfajeffster
Any results from the annals of history are very welcomed indeed. Given Billie Jean King's considerable influence on current perceptions of tennis history (or should I say herstory), digging through the old records is quite often revealing.

I've actually written to Margaret Court Ministries (without reply) requesting a complete list of her career tournament wins to forward to the International Tennis Hall of Fame. She may not have maintained such a list.

Tennisvideos- surely with the decidation of Margaret Court Arena a short while ago, there must be a comprehensive list of her tournament wins, at least from 1959-1968 (Amateur)?
I wrote to Sue Barker a few years ago after a query on the old website regarding the number of tournaments she'd won! Like you I didn't hear back.

A problem that comes up when trawling through old magazines is that quite often they don't differentiate between officially sanctioned tournaments and exhibitions. (This applies to all results, not just Court/King).
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post #25 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
We've established that King's stats contradict the acceptedl H2H count. They both can't be right. If Court beat King 14 straight times, then she won at least 26 matches (we've counted 21 with a streak of 9, so 5 more are out there somewhere). King says she won 12 of their last twenty. Court's last 8 victories run from 1970-1973 and in that period, we have 6 victories for King. So there must be 6 more King victories out there. 5 more for Court and six more for King would make a H2H of 26-18.

Of course BJK's 6 Wimbledon titles (those won in 1967 and 1972 were when Court was absent) are more impressive than Court's 3. Court leads at Forest Hills and Roland Garros, however.

But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)
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post #26 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
But there you go again! You're always happy to 'justify' King's wins but don't apply the same scrutiny to Court's records, (namely the absence of King when Margaret won the Slam at the US Open of 1970, or the quality of the opposition in many of her Australian triumphs, particularly the early ones: four straight finals against Jan Lehane - yes, the same Jan Lehane who reached exactly one Wimbledon quarter-final in her whole career!)
I think it's obvious from this thread that it's entirely possible to apply these "justification" tactics to anyone's head-to-head. The classic ridiculous justification is when someone says "the set was alot closer than the score"!

My basic interest in defending Margaret Court's record is based in the media bias Billie Jean King herself has perpetuated over they years, which exists today. How many times have you heard Tracy Austin, Pam Shriver, and any number of "professional commentators" parrot the BJK remark about Margaret Court (on the rare occasion her name comes up): "Yeah, but 11 of those titles were in Australia when nobody played", and then no discussion on exactly how great she really was. She suffers in historical debate because she was a shy, quiet girl, and with Billie Jean still out there with the same enthusiastic and sometimes self-aggrandizing take on history, you can see why I feel the need to balance things- if only in a small tennis chat room. I like Billie Jean King very much- she is one of my all-time favorite tennis players.

Margaret Court's achievements will probably never be equalled. I am 100% behind Martina Navratilova's efforts, but admit that I bristle when career stats are presented in "Open-Era" only fashion, thereby cheating both Billie Jean King and Margaret Court out of their rightful place in the record books.

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #27 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 08:22 PM
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Whoa hang on! The reason I wrote about court's absences at Wimb in 67 and 72 was because you were comparing Wimbledon titles won, Declan (maybe you were not entirely even handed in picking the one slam where BJK outscored Court??)
I didn't mention King's absence at the US in 70 or at the French in 62, 64 and 73 but neither did I mention Court's absence at RG in 72 or at Forest Hills in 67, 71 and 74. I didn't mention the Aus Open at all.
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post #28 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy T
Whoa hang on! The reason I wrote about court's absences at Wimb in 67 and 72 was because you were comparing Wimbledon titles won, Declan (maybe you were not entirely even handed in picking the one slam where BJK outscored Court??)
I didn't mention King's absence at the US in 70 or at the French in 62, 64 and 73 but neither did I mention Court's absence at RG in 72 or at Forest Hills in 67, 71 and 74. I didn't mention the Aus Open at all.
P.S.- you also forgot to mention Margaret's 3 out of 4 majors in 62, 65, 69, and 73 (4 titles away from an additional 4 Grand Slams), whereas Billie Jean could only muster 3 of the 4 majors once in her illustrious career- but I digress!

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #29 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 08:43 PM
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cat fight, cat fight...this is getting fun!
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post #30 of 203 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2003, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark36
cat fight, cat fight...this is getting fun!
Almost as fun as a blindfolded lesbian in a fish market...

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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