Durie was better than Graf. She leads their H2H 4-3. - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2004, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Durie was better than Graf. She leads their H2H 4-3.

to the underrated Ms Durie in her mastering of Ms Graf in their rivalry. Jo played some lovely tennis, unfortunately her less than stellar appearence meant she suffered the fate of the Tauziats of this world and was consigned to outside court anonimty whilst the real stars of the tour such as myself entertained our public on centre court, prime time.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 2004, 08:18 PM
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Durie had a good game to beat Graf, she could mix it up quite well. I know you beat Graf, too, Rinaldi. How's your record vs. Austin, Evert, Jaeger, Navratilova, and Seles?
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 02:17 AM
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Yo Kathy: if possible, how 'bout giving us the career H2Hs btwn Durie and Graf. BTW, nice job at the '83 French
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 05:54 AM
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No, bad job! I wish Austin would have won that 3rd set vs. Jo Durie in the quarterfinals which would have given her a French Open final 1983 (I think she would have beaten Jausovec in the semis). But I like Jausovec, too, so it's not that bad, but I would have preferred Austin.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 01:07 PM
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1983 STUTTGART-CARPET (I)R16J. DURIE 6-0 6-3
1984 WIMBLEDON-GRASS (O)R16J. DURIE 3-6 6-3 9-7
1985 VS OF FLORIDA-HARD (O)R64J. DURIE 2-6 6-4 7-5
1985 BERLIN-GERMAN OPEN-CLAY (O)R32 S. GRAF 3-6 6-2 6-3
1985 BRIGHTON-CARPET (I)R16J. DURIE6-2 6-3
1986 UNITED JERSEY-HARD (O)SS. GRAF 6-4 6-7(5) 6-1
1988 MIAMI-HARD (O)R16S. GRAF 6-1 6-1

I think it's safe to say (and Ms. Durie would no doubt agree) that the last match they played was a portend of things to come from the 18-year old Graf.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 01:17 PM
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It's one of those statistical anomelies which show just how such figures prove nothing. Jo happened to get a chance at beating Graf while she was near the "peak" of her game and Steffi was only ascending the ladder. After 1985 Jo was so far down the rankings and winning so few matches she rarely got a chance to compete against Steffi again. Just as well, methinks!

Poor Jo. Such a bright talent wasted.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 05:56 PM
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>>>>>>>>I think it's safe to say (and Ms. Durie would no doubt agree) that the last match they played was a portend of things to come from the 18-year old Graf.

And Durie was years after her prime in 1988.... I'm not saying she would have won that match had she played her best Tennis as she did from 83 to 85, but she might have given Graf a close set, like 57 26.

Talking about anomelies, Graf hardly had to play Navratilova nor Evert nor Mandlikova before 1985 (her third year on the tour) which gave her an advantage for their later h2h statistics. On the other hand Graf got to play all the youngsters when they were in their first year and far from their peak (Seles, Capriati, Hingis).

Graf was a top ten player in 1985, Durie beat her twice, so it's a good record in any case.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert1
>>>>>>>>I think it's safe to say (and Ms. Durie would no doubt agree) that the last match they played was a portend of things to come from the 18-year old Graf.

And Durie was years after her prime in 1988.... I'm not saying she would have won that match had she played her best Tennis as she did from 83 to 85, but she might have given Graf a close set, like 57 26.

Talking about anomelies, Graf hardly had to play Navratilova nor Evert nor Mandlikova before 1985 (her third year on the tour) which gave her an advantage for their later h2h statistics. On the other hand Graf got to play all the youngsters when they were in their first year and far from their peak (Seles, Capriati, Hingis).

Graf was a top ten player in 1985, Durie beat her twice, so it's a good record in any case.
The point being, you could say that about any champion from any era- Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova got to play Margaret Court and Billie Jean King way past their primes as well, and as a result have winning records over them. Monica Seles got to play Martina Navratilova a few times when she was arguably past her peak, and has a winning record over her. She only got to play Chris Evert three times, and Chris beat her twice (including the last). It's a perfect illustration of why it's impossible to compare champions.

I'd have to disagree with you about Graf's record against the last three, as she most certainly played all three of them, and beat them all when they were at their peaks. I don't think Graf was yet at her peak in 1988- I'd say her best tennis was played in 95-96. Martina Hingis had several chances to beat Graf when she was past her peak (98-99), and still came out on the short end of the stick. Hingis' game didn't get any better after 99, and in fact, probably got worse mentally.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 07:23 PM
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Steffi Graf was better than Kathy Rinaldi

1984 UNITED JERSEY HARD (O)R32 K. RINALDI STUNKEL 6-4 6-4
1985 MIAMI HARD (O)R16 S. GRAF 6-1 1-0 ret. (whahappen?)
1985 UNITED JERSEY HARD (O)F K. RINALDI STUNKEL 6-4 3-6 6-4
1986 WITA CHAMPIONSHIP CLAY (O)S S. GRAF 6-1 5-7 6-3
1990 SAN DIEGO HARD (O)R16 S. GRAF 6-3 6-4
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 07:38 PM
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Graf-Navratilova: Age difference 12 years and 8 months
Graf defeated Navratilova for the first time in Berlin 1986 when Martina was 29 years and 7 months old and Graf was 16 years and 11 months.

Graf-Evert: Age difference 14 years and 6 months
Steffi's first win over Evert was at Hilton Head in 1986 when Evert was 31 years and 5 months old and Graf 16 years and 10 months old.

Navratilova-Court: Age difference 14 years and 3 months
Navratilova's first win over Court was at the 1975 Australian Open when Court was 32 years and 6 months old and Navratilova 18 years and two months.


Navratilova-King: Age difference 12 years 11 months
Martina's first win was in January 1978 at Houston, when King was 34 years and two months old and Navratilova 21 and three months.

Evert-Court: Age difference 12 years 7 months
Evert's first win over Court was in Charlotte 1970 when Court was 28 and two months Evert 15 and 9 months.

Evert-King: Age difference 11 years 1 month
Evert's first win over King was in St Petersburg in April 1971 when Evert was 16 yrs and 4 months and King 27 and 5 months. If we discount that one because King retired and count the first full match it's Fort Lauderdale Feb 1972 when Evert was 17 yrs 2mo and King 28 yrs 3 mo.

Hingis-Graf: Age difference 11 years 3 months
Martina Hingis beat Steffi Graf for the first time in the 1996 Italian Open when Hingis was 15 years and 8 months old and Graf 28 years and 11 months old

Graf-Serena Williams: Age difference 12 years 3 months
Serena Williams beat Graf for the first time in 1999 Indian Wells when Serena was 17 years and 6 months old and Graf was 29 years and 9 months old
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 07:50 PM
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Nice homework Andy. The list looks pretty evenly distributed. The only proviso to the list to add would be that Steffi Graf was on the tour full-time when she was 14 years old. Out of all those players listed, only Hingis comes close, and Hingis and Evert are the only ones on that list who actually had complete games at that age. We'll never know what Serena's game was like at that age, because she came up outside of the system.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 2004, 10:56 PM
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One should also add the number of times the players had met before the decisive breakthrough was made. I'll try and do that.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old Oct 26th, 2004, 07:30 AM
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How nice of you Kathy to come to Jo Durie's defense regarding
Graf, I didn't realize you were such a "fan" of hers. Oh, and by
the way sweetie, there appears to be a "typo" in your profile
regarding your birthdate, either that or you were actually 10 years
of age when you reached your first French Open QF.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old Nov 8th, 2004, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
It's a perfect illustration of why it's impossible to compare champions.
Then how come there are all those discussions about such and such being the greatest ever....Graf being better than martina N, etc?
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old Nov 9th, 2004, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou
Then how come there are all those discussions about such and such being the greatest ever....Graf being better than martina N, etc?
Because boo- we're all sitting in this sandbox together, and while I have the pail and shovel in my hand, my fave is better than your fave, and I'll dump a pail full of sand on your head and make you cry until your mommy comes over and takes my pail and shovel away from me, and then my mommy comes over and starts screaming at your mommy, and then they grab each others' hair and the fake nails start flying off, and the cat sounds and screeches fill the air, and the two of us begin wailing loudly underneath it all, until suddenly, out of nowhere, appears this angel of reason, called the game of tennis, wafting gently into the middle of the fray, full of lightening bolts and sparks and shimmering glory, and everyone becomes silent, looking up at the angel with awe-struck reverence. The angel pulls a golden racquet out of its (angels are sexless wonders by the way) flowing robe, and a golden ball suddenly materializes in its hand, and the mommies and babies take a deep breath, as the angel throws the ball up into the air. It's a rather high toss, but the angel has no problem adjusting, arching the back, twisting the torso, bending the knees, and hitting the best serve ever seen by mortals, and the mommies and babies collapse in a heap of tears, wondering what made them lose their initial joy and fascination with the game. And there, in that sandbox, they all realized, as the angel flew away, what they were all there for in the first place- the love of the game.
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