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Old May 4th, 2019, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter2003 View Post
because of missing Aranxta Sanchez completely on my 1988 accessory lists, I have to look for the fatal error...
I found that error and it started at the end of 1984. It took more than a week to re-calulate all those weeks.

The main rankings were not affected.
I have exchanged the wrong lists with the corrected ones.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 01:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

added yearend lists for Average, Best16 and Diminishing for 1989 and 1990 as well
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Old May 9th, 2019, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

I found a video of the full 1991 Hamburg final and thought to watch it now.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z4c-XkdDBLo

But after a few minutes I recognized the meaning of "Special" in the description. It has music added to the background - dance music! A bad innovation.

The best comment about this at the bottom of the page: "Wow the quality of the video is amazing, but the music is tacky and the commentator is annoying as hell. After a few games I had to watch this video on mute."
That's right at all. It is quite often difficult to follow the rallies through bad commentary, but the music in addition is too distracting for me.


*******************

Started to watch another video.
At one situation the umpire called "Let" in French - players don't react, than again in English - point played on!
Can the umpire count this point by rules? Here he did it.

Last edited by Peter2003; May 9th, 2019 at 01:26 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2019, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Added yearend lists for Average, Best16 and Diminishing for 1991.
So all the years I've worked on have a complete overview.

Back to work on all-new rankings...
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Old May 10th, 2019, 06:35 PM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Thanks for posting this. Iíve always wanted to see it.
Itís so strange how someone was able to acquire the pure video feed with court audio, but no commentary audio nor graphics. Then they laid down their own horrible commentary with MUSIC! Insane! I canít watch a seles match on mute, but Iíve turned the sound way down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter2003 View Post
I found a video of the full 1991 Hamburg final and thought to watch it now.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z4c-XkdDBLo

But after a few minutes I recognized the meaning of "Special" in the description. It has music added to the background - dance music! A bad innovation.

The best comment about this at the bottom of the page: "Wow the quality of the video is amazing, but the music is tacky and the commentator is annoying as hell. After a few games I had to watch this video on mute."
That's right at all. It is quite often difficult to follow the rallies through bad commentary, but the music in addition is too distracting for me.


*******************

Started to watch another video.
At one situation the umpire called "Let" in French - players don't react, than again in English - point played on!
Can the umpire count this point by rules? Here he did it.
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Despite still working on the 1990s, I'm already thinking about the further stages of my project.

I want to allocate fix categories for all years similar to nowadays.
In the thread "tournament winners by event" are listed up to 400 different events for some years - most of them discontinued already before the Open Era.

Has anyone worked on such difficult topic before?


*************************************

Still open related question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter2003 View Post
Today it is clear how the tournaments get their (top)players. But how worked the pre-WTA years, how was the amateur-era organized in general? Had their national LTA a dominant role in tour planning?

Thread suggestions with discussing those internals?
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 12:26 AM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
I want to allocate fix categories for all years similar to nowadays.
In the thread "tournament winners by event" are listed up to 400 different events for some years - most of them discontinued already before the Open Era.

Has anyone worked on such difficult topic before?
I am still amazed by the number of smaller events in years such as before the open era. It easily runs into hundreds of events a year.

This is what I did Peter. I thought of what a "perfect" year would look like.

Then I

1. Fixed an "ideal" number of points for the top 100 events and slams [84,000 points in my case]

2. Allowed a little bit of wiggle room since there is no ideal year in reality. Thus I have minimum points (75,000) and maximum points (83,000) for years when there is an extra major (like the 2020 Olympics).

3. I also have minimums and maximums for all my categories below.

What all this does is make years more or less equal in weight. Using minimums and maximums provides flexibility.

So my "perfect" year looks like this

100 events plus "majors"

27,000 points from 4 Majors=6000 per slam and a 5th event (3000)=27,000 points
27,000 from 30 Tier II events at 900 points (900X 30=27000).
21,000 from 70 Tier 3 events at 300 points) (300X700=21,000)
-------------
75,000 points
05,000 points where I can add points to Tier II events. This gives me more wiggle room.
--------------
80,000 points spread out over the top 100 events and 4 to 6 majors

So to get back to your question--The women's tour still has 100s of smaller events at the ITF level. All those $10,000 and $15,000 events! After my top 100 events I award the smallest events 100 points. I do the same with early years like 1924. A minor event in Czechoslovakia? 100 points. The Maine state championships? 100 points.

You already have your own points system in place. I think as long as you keep that and allow enough flexibility you will be fine.


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Last edited by Rollo; May 23rd, 2019 at 12:41 AM.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
I am still amazed by the number of smaller events in years such as before the open era. It easily runs into hundreds of events a year.

[...]

You already have your own points system in place. I think as long as you keep that and allow enough flexibility you will be fine.
In 2015 there were almost 600 ITF tournaments on the calendar!

But my question targets to the big ones, not the small ones.

The number of tournaments provided by WTA varied over the years, between 46 and 64, mostly more than 50.
And also the number in each category varied widely.
In average the appropriate pre-WTA-framework would be:
Tier 1 ... 10
Tier 2 ... 10
Tier 3 ... 10
Tier 4 ... 15
Tier 5 ... 15
all ...... 60

My problem is: which of the hundreds existing should count to the "big 60" continuously from the beginning of competitive tennis and in which order?

Doubtless in the 1960s Queen's Club, The Italian, The German, The Kent count all as Tier 1. Clearly the Italian can't count to the big ones the decades before...


My hope still is that anyone worked out such a tournament list for each year or decade - or even for some years/decades would be appreciated.

Last edited by Peter2003; May 23rd, 2019 at 09:09 PM.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:11 PM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Give me a year and will produce my (subjective of course) list for you.

Do you only use the top 60 tournaments? It could work for rankings from say 1983 to now, but for earlier years I find it would be hard indeed.

At any rate I could give you my rankings rubric (and the reasons why) and you can modify it as you see fit.


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Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:14 PM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
Clearly the Italian can't count to the big ones the decades before...
You are correct in that it wasn't a slam. But for a good amount of time is was the "5th major", especially in the 1960s. There was serious talk of having it replace the Australian as a grand slam.


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Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:56 PM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Wasnít the Italian basically considered along the lines of Indian Wells or Miami before WTT? Then it made a glorious comeback the year after WTT finally folded in 1979 with Austin miraculously halting Evertís mind boggling clay streak at 125? Goolagong, Wade and most of the top stars appeared as well save for Martina* and BJK. Then it seemed to wax & wane depending on the entry list for a few years until the entire tour finally started playing the clay season a few years later?

*off topic but why did Martina skip the Italian until 1987? She was the number one player in the world in 1979 and she just completely skipped the entire clay circuit.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: my weekly rankings project

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Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
...

Do you only use the top 60 tournaments? It could work for rankings from say 1983 to now, but for earlier years I find it would be hard indeed.

...
No, I will use as many as my database can store, but these 60 should be the solid basis (to preserve the current system as good as possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo View Post
You are correct in that it wasn't a slam. But for a good amount of time is was the "5th major", especially in the 1960s. There was serious talk of having it replace the Australian as a grand slam.
I'm glad this didn't happen. The development of the Aussie from the mid-80s till nowadays is somewhat phenomenal. Without still having Grand Slam status, all the big investments to vitalize this status would not have made.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 01:25 AM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
I'm glad this didn't happen. The development of the Aussie from the mid-80s till nowadays is somewhat phenomenal. Without still having Grand Slam status, all the big investments to vitalize this status would not have made.
I agree 100% Peter. Having the 4th slam in another continent is wonderful IMO. And in 1979 no one would have dared predict it would become so big. The only slam I have never visited. One day.......

My only regret is they gave up the grass. Once the Aussie went to hard courts in 1988 we lost the variety different surfaces give the sport. It almost killed grass, and has effectively killed indoor tennis.


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Old May 24th, 2019, 01:33 AM
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Re: my weekly rankings project

Quote:
Posted by Mark Wasn’t the Italian basically considered along the lines of Indian Wells or Miami before WTT? Then it made a glorious comeback the year after WTT finally folded in 1979 with Austin miraculously halting Evert’s mind boggling clay streak at 125? Goolagong, Wade and most of the top stars appeared as well save for Martina* and BJK. Then it seemed to wax & wane depending on the entry list for a few years until the entire tour finally started playing the clay season a few years later?

*off topic but why did Martina skip the Italian until 1987? She was the number one player in the world in 1979 and she just completely skipped the entire clay circuit.
From the 1950s the Italian was the 5th major, or, as you write Mark, like a Miami. It was very strong through 1970, when Billie Jean King and Virginia Wade played the match of the year in the semis. King won after saving match points.

Even some top Aussies declared Rome should replace the Aussie as a slam. Rome was THAT big in prestige.

Pro tennis made the women's event in Rome quickly become a minor event for them. The Italians just didn't want to cough up money for the dames. In 1971 the field was only 16. 1972 was pitiful. Chris Evert gave the event some shine in 1974 and 1976, but World Team Tennis was killing it.

Prize money got a big shot in the arm in 1979-but only after Chris Evert promised to play. 1979 was also important becasue the women were playing alone withot the men for the first time. The biggest crowd of the week was the 1,500 who watched Tracy Austin end Chris Evert's incredible clay court streak at 125. Total attendance for the week was a pitiful 5,000.

From 1980 to 1985 the event moved north to Perugia. The crowds were pretty good, but there was a lot of rain. The event got real downgrade in the mid1980s, only returning to Rome in 1987. That was the year Martina returned, thrilling fans with a classic match vs Gabriella Sabatini. For a few years in Rome the women actually had more fans than the men!

*To answer your question about Martina skipping the event: she was afraid of Evert on clay. Martina avoided European clay totally from 1976 to 1981. Martina and Tracy tried to downplay the French as a major in 1979 and 1980. By 1981 the writing was on the wall and Navratilova came to Paris. She still avoided every other red clay event though. By the mid 1980s Martina dominated everything of course. She was the GOAT of the moment but needed goals. I think this is what led her to play Berlin in 1986 and Rome in 1987.
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Last edited by Rollo; May 24th, 2019 at 01:47 AM.
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