Has Steffi Graf ever been "beaten"?! - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Has Steffi Graf ever been "beaten"?!

In reading how a Graf-fan dismissed Steffi´s loss at IW´99 as more Steffi losing than her opponent winning it, that her opponent didn´t do anything other than bring the ball back and that she didn´t have any shotmaking abilities whatsoever....made me wonder.

Has Steffi Graf ever been "beaten, as in that a player just was the better player that day:shotmaking, serving, movement, etc....or was it all about Steffi losing it rather than her opponent just beating her?!

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post #2 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou
Has Steffi Graf ever been "beaten, as in that a player just was the better player that day:shotmaking, serving, movement, etc....or was it all about Steffi losing it rather than her opponent just beating her?!
Actually, no! Every match Graf ever lost was only because she played 100,000 notches below her usual level -- in other words, at around 0.005%

Seriously, though, I have to go with Irma on this one. The person who wins the last point was/is the better player on the day.

Best left-right combination by a German (and that includes Max Schmeling): Steffi Graf. All she did in 1987 was knock Navratilova out of #1 and try to knock Evert out of the sport. (Mike Lupica in "The Best and Worst of Tennis in 1987", World Tennis)

"A couple of years ago, we nicknamed Steffi Graf's forehand 'Jaws'. And that music would go perfectly when she starts running in to the net, swarming on that little ball." (JoAnne Russell, during the 1988 Wimbledon final between Graf and Navratilova)

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post #3 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou
In reading how a Graf-fan dismissed Steffi´s loss at IW´99 as more Steffi losing than her opponent winning it, that her opponent didn´t do anything other than bring the ball back and that she didn´t have any shotmaking abilities whatsoever....made me wonder.

Has Steffi Graf ever been "beaten, as in that a player just was the better player that day:shotmaking, serving, movement, etc....or was it all about Steffi losing it rather than her opponent just beating her?!

Yes, of course.
Several times.
Wimbledon 87 final comes into mind.
In later years perhaps FedCup 96 against Date.
On of the losses to Sabatini in spring of 91 (forgot which one).

And a lot pre-87 and post-96. Of course we have to consider that Graf was too young and too old respectively.

All together at least a dozen of Graf's about 100 losses were legit ....


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post #4 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 10:28 AM
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When Mary beat her in France 94 I got the impression she had been well and truly beaten into submission, and it stuck in my mind as i had never seen that happen before, never seen her get beaten by a better player(on the day) like that.
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post #5 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 10:32 AM
 
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Of course.

Hasn't everybody ?
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post #6 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesuk
When Mary beat her in France 94 I got the impression she had been well and truly beaten into submission, and it stuck in my mind as i had never seen that happen before, never seen her get beaten by a better player(on the day) like that.


Graf had severe back problems already.
Doesn't count therefore .....
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post #7 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 11:00 AM
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Not true. Steffi was totally outplayed that day. Jo Durie's Wimbledon win in 1984 was another example, as was Lindsay's win in the 1999 final. Although doubtless on here the former will be written off as Steffi being 'too young' and the latter as 'too old'.....
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post #8 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 12:25 PM
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Well Steffi may have had severe back problems but with the way mary played (and had been playing through the whole tournament) it was a blitzing, and would have been if Steffi had been fit!! The way mary was being talked up all that tournament, it just seemed like destiny.
If the back was severe why did she risk playing?

Oh and i also remember the following Graf match v McNeil at Wimbledon, watched that one live, edge of seat stuff! Damp court, against a grass court player who came up with too many well crafted points, voleys etc.....what was the reason/excuse that time?!

As for the Davenport match, that has to be a true example of being beaten fair and square. Graf played really well, Davenport a tiny bit better. HAd Davenport made a few more of her customary errors, just a few more, Graf would have won.
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post #9 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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So only a dozen of her losses were legit....interesting.

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post #10 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 03:19 PM
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How did Amanda Coetzer beat Steffi?!
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post #11 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
Not true. Steffi was totally outplayed that day. Jo Durie's Wimbledon win in 1984 was another example, as was Lindsay's win in the 1999 final. Although doubtless on here the former will be written off as Steffi being 'too young' and the latter as 'too old'.....
Of course she was outplayed at FO 94 sf. Your point being?
You are a supporter of the theory, that if a player is totally outplayed he can't have problems with the back?
Very interesting! Please elaborate ......

84 Wimbledon (4th round against Durie): Steffi was just 15 years old (birthday 2 weeks earlier). She weighed about 35 kg, I almost overlooked her on the court that day. A kid - not comparable to Capriati with 15.

99 Wimbledon: Graf was injured and ill, played almost in slow-motion. She had beaten Hingis & V. Williams at slams in those weeks. Her mission was fulfilled having beaten those much-touted "young guns", her successors. No gas left.
Graf of 88, 92, 96 Wimbledon form would have eaten poor Lindsay alive. Eveybody who doesn't see that obviously never played tennis himself .....

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post #12 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesuk
Well Steffi may have had severe back problems but with the way mary played (and had been playing through the whole tournament) it was a blitzing, and would have been if Steffi had been fit!! The way mary was being talked up all that tournament, it just seemed like destiny.
If the back was severe why did she risk playing?

Oh and i also remember the following Graf match v McNeil at Wimbledon, watched that one live, edge of seat stuff! Damp court, against a grass court player who came up with too many well crafted points, voleys etc.....what was the reason/excuse that time?!

As for the Davenport match, that has to be a true example of being beaten fair and square. Graf played really well, Davenport a tiny bit better. HAd Davenport made a few more of her customary errors, just a few more, Graf would have won.
Pierce: Admittedly Pierce played the match of her live, Steffi would have difficulties even in top form ...
Had Steffi not played every time when she was injured she would have played only 700 and not more than 1000 matches during her career. She was some slams with injuries no Williams sister would have even played with.

McNeil: Perhaps Steffi had to fill out her tax declaration the day before (sensing trouble already)?

Davenport: It was a tight match, Lindsay made just 4 points more (68-64). But hey, Graf of 98/99 was a shadow of her former self. She had some great days still (comparably to Evert in 88/89) but was over the hill after her reconstructive knee surgery in 97.
Don't forget that almost all doctors said in 97 that Steffi was done & that she had to stop her farewell tour in spring 2000 because of that injury. Steffi had many, many injuries. Without them she would have had about 28, 30 slams. 97 was the end of the road for her. 99 was only an afterglow .....

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post #13 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandabou
So only a dozen of her losses were legit....interesting.

OK, Steffi haters will count more than 25 perhaps, Grafans will say "almost none". So 12 or so is a good average, IMO .......

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post #14 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jippo McScally
How did Amanda Coetzer beat Steffi?!

4 times.

Toronto 95: Peter Graf had been arrested 2 weeks earlier. It was Steffi's first match after that.

AO 97: Steffi was filled-up with antibiotics because of a inflammation of her left big toenail (had surgery after that match).

Berlin 97 & FO 97: Steffi's knee cap was slowly falling off. Had reconstructive knee surgery 2 days after the FO loss.

Coetzer, when asked years later about her 4 wins against Graf, smiled and said "I had the luck to play her several times when she was injured."
Well said, Amanda .....

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post #15 of 186 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 2004, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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So the average is 12...could have been more, could have been less?! No, we want actual numbers.

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