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post #1 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2004, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Seles-Graf

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Last edited by Rollo; Oct 13th, 2004 at 06:34 AM.
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post #2 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2004, 02:08 PM
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OMG- if I look at the mirror long enough, I can see anything I want to see!

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #3 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2004, 04:10 PM
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Okay, thanks Rollo.

1989-05-29Roland GarrosClaySFSteffi Graf (GER)6-3 3-6 6-3
1989-06-26WimbledonGrassR16Steffi Graf (GER)6-0 6-1
1989-10-23BrightonIndoor CarpetFSteffi Graf (GER)7-5 6-4
1990-05-14BerlinClayFMonica Seles (USA)6-4 6-3
1990-05-28Roland GarrosClayFMonica Seles (USA)7-6 6-4
1991-03-25San AntonioHardcourtFSteffi Graf (GER)6-4 6-3
1991-04-29HamburgClayFSteffi Graf (GER)7-5 6-7 6-3
1992-05-25Roland GarrosClayFMonica Seles (USA)6-2 3-6 10-8
1992-06-22WimbledonGrassFSteffi Graf (GER)6-2 6-1
1993-01-18Australian OpenHardcourtFMonica Seles (USA)4-6 6-3 6-2
1995-08-28U.S. OpenHardcourtFSteffi Graf (GER)7-6(6) 0-6 6-3
1996-08-26U.S. OpenHardcourtFSteffi Graf (GER)7-5 6-4
1998-11-16Chase ChampionshipsIndoor CarpetQFSteffi Graf (GER)1-6 6-4 6-4
1999-01-18Australian OpenHardcourtQFMonica Seles (USA)7-5 6-1
1999-05-24Roland GarrosClaySFSteffi Graf (GER)6-7(2) 6-3 6-4

Steffi Graf (GER) leads 10:5


Hard: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 3:2

Clay: Tied 3:3

Grass: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:0

Indoor: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 2:0

Grand Slam meetings: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 6:4

Sets played: Steffi Graf (GER) leads 22:15


lol....sorry to copy you, alfa!
Think of it as a type of flattery!
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post #4 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 12th, 2004, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
Have fun

Here you go again!
Why is it "Seles-Graf" and not "Graf-Seles"?
After all Graf won 22 slams (7 Wimbys among them) and Seles only 9 (was beaten like a drum by Graf at Wimbledon regularily and never won this most prestigious tournament of them all)!
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post #5 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 13th, 2004, 06:23 PM
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Monica Seles - no one got to the top of the game faster than her, no one had so much success at such a young age. Only a stabbing could stop her, she was so good, the best of them all, winning major tournaments time after time after time for 3 years in a row, and in that period ahead in h2h vs. anyone.

Whoever calls Graff the greatest ever acknowledges Monica Seles as the absolute greatest evert - because she was the one who reached the number one ranking on the Tennis court.

Monica Seles - indeed the greatest ever. Her name shouldn't be in the same headline with that kind of vermin.
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post #6 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 13th, 2004, 06:26 PM
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How is it they go when they taste a bad matzoh ball- UCCCHHH!!!!

There is nothing more beautiful than Evonne Goolagong in full flight moving across a tennis court.
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post #7 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 13th, 2004, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert1
Monica Seles - no one got to the top of the game faster than her, no one had so much success at such a young age. Only a stabbing could stop her, she was so good, the best of them all, winning major tournaments time after time after time for 3 years in a row, and in that period ahead in h2h vs. anyone.

Whoever calls Graff the greatest ever acknowledges Monica Seles as the absolute greatest evert - because she was the one who reached the number one ranking on the Tennis court.

Monica Seles - indeed the greatest ever. Her name shouldn't be in the same headline with that kind of vermin.

Seles reached #1 again after her return due to a special co-#1 ranking rule.
At last she lost it - on the court.

The stabbing prevented her from playing for about 2 months. After that she didn't have the mental strength to play for more than 2 years. And after that she she was still only 21 years old. She still had all time in the world. She had many slams tournaments when Graf was out due to injury or to retirement.
If she had won some more, only SOME more slams post-95 you would have a point. But so - no way. Only two years "dominating" the tour is not enough to be called one of the greatest-ever. Graf was 4-1 against her when she was 21-25 years old (Graf 26-29).
Get over it, Robbert ......

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post #8 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 04:15 AM
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Sometimes I think that Seles fans have no sense of proportion.

Case in point:

Seles is the greatest ever but she never won Wimbledon (the most prestigious tournament in tennis).

Seles is the greatest ever but she doesn't even have a winning record from 1989 to 1993 against the other woman with a claim to the title of greatest ever.

Seles is the greatest ever but for all of her alleged dominance of two years she never claimed all four grand slam tournaments in one year. Need to win at Wimbledon to complete the Grand Slam.

Seles is the greatest ever but only if you discount her performances after 1995 when according to her age she should just have been reaching her physical peak. (Oh, she peaked all right, but not in the way most Seles fans wanted.)

Seles is the greatest ever but please forget that embarrassing period when she often showed up on the court remarkably overweight and out of shape.

Seles is the greatest ever but please don't take into account the fact that that greatness didn't mean a whole lot against the likes of Hingis, Davenport, Serena, and Venus. If she was that great, why didn't she manage to hold her own against the new generation? Her chief rival, Steffi Graf, did. And, as Seles fans keep telling us, Graf just wasn't that great.

I'd like to see the world like most Seles fans do. Everything seems bigger through their fun house mirrors, except Seles' body of course.
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post #9 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 06:53 AM
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What's your problem: Graff was a good number 2 before the stabbing, no doubt about it. Well, 1991 it was close between Graff and Sabatini, but as Graff won Wimbledon that year I'd say, she was a number 2, close in front of Gaby. But 1990, 1992 and 1993 up to the stabbing her record made her a very good number 2 player. And Monica was a good dominating player from spring 1990 to the stabbing in spring 1993.

LDV: You don't know what an attack like a stabbing means, therefore it's no point in explanations. That Seles came back at all is a miracle, that she beat any player after that at least once, another one. She had the figures before the stabbing and the courage after it. She's the greatest
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post #10 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDVTennis
Sometimes I think that Seles fans have no sense of proportion.

Case in point:

Seles is the greatest ever but she never won Wimbledon (the most prestigious tournament in tennis).

Seles is the greatest ever but she doesn't even have a winning record from 1989 to 1993 against the other woman with a claim to the title of greatest ever.

Seles is the greatest ever but for all of her alleged dominance of two years she never claimed all four grand slam tournaments in one year. Need to win at Wimbledon to complete the Grand Slam.

Seles is the greatest ever but only if you discount her performances after 1995 when according to her age she should just have been reaching her physical peak. (Oh, she peaked all right, but not in the way most Seles fans wanted.)

Seles is the greatest ever but please forget that embarrassing period when she often showed up on the court remarkably overweight and out of shape.

Seles is the greatest ever but please don't take into account the fact that that greatness didn't mean a whole lot against the likes of Hingis, Davenport, Serena, and Venus. If she was that great, why didn't she manage to hold her own against the new generation? Her chief rival, Steffi Graf, did. And, as Seles fans keep telling us, Graf just wasn't that great.

I'd like to see the world like most Seles fans do. Everything seems bigger through their fun house mirrors, except Seles' body of course.

I have to say that I have a great deal of admiration for Seles and would have her at No. 6 in my post 68 top 10 and high in an all-time list. Her Grand Slam record and general standard of play from 1991-93 without question supports this.

What happened in 1993 was a tragedy so 1995 onwards is an anti-climax. We just cannot know how she was affected physcologically by the stabbing. It must be significant that she took over 2 years to return to the Tour.

However I hope I can have a sense of perspective. You can't live on what ifs. You simply don't know what "might" have happened. You can only judge on facts so you have to take 1995 onwards into consideration and (sorry Robert) there is no question of someone who has not won a Wimbledon singles title being the "greatest ever".
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post #11 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 08:00 AM
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Chris, your last point is EXACTLY what I feel too. Regardless of circumstances, the absence of a Wimbledon title excludes anyone for 'Greatest Ever' consideration.
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post #12 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
Chris, your last point is EXACTLY what I feel too. Regardless of circumstances, the absence of a Wimbledon title excludes anyone for 'Greatest Ever' consideration.

I tend to agree on this. Wimbledon is THE biggest tournament by far and is the ultimate crown that can be obtained by any player.

No disrespect to him but I think I've already forgotten this year's French champion's name. But I'll never forget Pat Cash or Michael Stich. Even though those two players will hardly be remembered for anything else. The old addage is true, "Win Wimbledon and all is forgiven."
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post #13 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Declan
Chris, your last point is EXACTLY what I feel too. Regardless of circumstances, the absence of a Wimbledon title excludes anyone for 'Greatest Ever' consideration.
I understand what you mean Declan and I tend to agree although on the other hand I think in the 1990's grass is such a specialist and unique surface than it used to be in the 1960s and 1970s when 3 of the 4 Grand Slams were on the grass and therefore I think it was easier to win Wimbledon back then as it was a surface everyone was comfortable on and playing on most of the year. In Monica's day she would often only play 1 event on grass and that was Wimbledon. I am not saying winning Wimbledon was easy in the 1960s but it was perhaps less of a climate change playing on the grass.
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post #14 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 03:50 PM
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Calijerko, you should face the fact that Monica was greater than Graff before the stabbing. If you cannot face that fact, you have a big problem and don't even realize it. We feel pity for you
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post #15 of 291 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 2004, 04:18 PM
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LDV, when did any Seles fan say that she's the greatest ever?! All were doing is trying to defend her 3 years of dominance! And Pete Sampras is considerd one of the greatest male player, but never won the French Open.

We all know Monica didnt win Wimbledon, get over it
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