Moderation Feedback Thread - Page 2 - TennisForum.com
 454Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:08 AM
Most Loved Member
 
Kworb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 11,180
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

As admin of an even bigger forum I can kind of understand where the mods are coming from, but for the health of the community I think it would've been better to just let those same arguments play out over and over. In the end it's the most interesting story the WTA currently has to offer. People want to talk about it and it's what new people would come here to talk about. I'm all for quality over quantity but these measures have taken out a lot of quality posters as well. Unfortunately it's probably too late now to undo the damage, even if they did reconsider their stance.
Demosthenes likes this.

2016 saviors of the WTA

ANGELIQUE KERBER 63 75 DOMINIKA CIBULKOVA 60 60
LOUISA CHIRICO 60 60 IRINA-CAMELIA BEGU 63 62 KARIN KNAPP 63 67 60
Kworb is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 08:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Mauriac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: On Echo Beach
Posts: 11,308
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serg. View Post
If you post about apples on tennis forum, of course it'll be locked. Talk about tennis and it won't.
You can, in fact, talk about apples, as long as it's in the non-tennis section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVilkas View Post
I agree with @Mauriac . I have the feeling that moderation of Sharapova-related threads in GM has exceeded normal scope at some time a little after the CAS decision, and since then there is a lack of clear policy on this issue along with heavy-handed blocking of threads that might be perceived as negative to Maria.

Yes, those threads often have juvenile characterizations by both sides, and yes, they are sometimes repetitive with the same points being recycled and facts/opinions about Maria's adventures before CAS and the tribunal rehashed. Sometimes this is because new posters ask about this information, and sometimes it is because proponents of either side feel that their view needs repeating. But overall these threads have contained lots of useful information about a topic that like it or not is at the forefront of tennis news at the moment and will still be there for the foreseeable future. Pretending that developments regarding Maria's comeback and the positive and negative reactions in the tennis world are not actually happening and/or are not of interest to tennis fans (as @miffedmax put it, "This thread has run it's course and then some" when closing the main thread about Maria's comeback) is neither convincing (with articles being published in the press daily and with these threads having a large number of views and posters) nor helpful.

I understand that tennisforum might be concerned about legal issues (either real requests from Maria's team or perceived risk of such). If this is the case, it would be of service to the forum users to outright say that an executive decision has been made to submit to self-imposed censorship and to not discuss anything about Maria. It would be sad if one can talk more freely on the BBC or Daily Mail sites about tennis things than in tennisforum, but at least this would be understandable. If this is not the case, then clear rules should be posted about what is OK and what is not OK to be posted, with examples, and these rules should be enforced in cleaning the threads with infarctions issued, not used to close them.
Indeed. And it's also applied very selectively. For example, how many threads have there been about the GOAT debate yet I don't see them being closed or removed?

With regard to a concern about legal issues, if mods have been told to apply censorship in certain cases because of a threat of legal action then I agree, we should be told that.

Last edited by John.; Jul 17th, 2017 at 08:00 PM.
Mauriac is offline  
post #18 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
 
Escapist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,680
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

This place is becoming more and more sterile every week. Slowly the fun is being moderated away and it's harmful to this board in the long run.

The most innocuous things are being deleted and I really don't understand why. Doesn't help this board to stay active. The excessive moderation goes well beyond Sharapova threads.
Queen Vika and Le Vautour like this.

♛ A. Radwańska - S. Williams - M. Hingis
♔ A. Murray - P.H. Herbert - M. Kližan
Escapist is offline  
 
post #19 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauriac View Post
Why was the thread about Steve Simon's comment abut possibly reviewing the WC rule closed? Yes, some people had gone off topic and used it as an excuse to Maria bash but surely good moderation here would have been to remove those comments not just close down the whole thread. Even in the relatively short time I have been a member of this forum it has become a shadow of its former self in terms of active users and number of threads. I acknowledge that the mods on here generally do a good job but stifling legitimate debate will only hasten the forum's descent into the grave. And really it should be for the users to decide what they want to talk about not the mods.
It's not that we are trying to stifle debate, but the threads about Maria have been going round in circles for over a year now. While we understand that it's an important topic and posters want to discuss it, it seems that some are unable to do this and stick to the rules of the forum at the same time. That's despite numerous warnings in the multiple threads about the topic. The original thread that we closed had numerous clean ups due to bickering, offensive posting, attacking players (not just Maria), off topic discussion. Each time it was reopened, posters were asked to stay on topic. We try to be as fair as we can, and we know we can't please everyone, but how many times can we say the same thing without taking, what we felt, was the only course of action

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVilkas View Post
I agree with @Mauriac . I have the feeling that moderation of Sharapova-related threads in GM has exceeded normal scope at some time a little after the CAS decision, and since then there is a lack of clear policy on this issue along with heavy-handed blocking of threads that might be perceived as negative to Maria.

Yes, those threads often have juvenile characterizations by both sides, and yes, they are sometimes repetitive with the same points being recycled and facts/opinions about Maria's adventures before CAS and the tribunal rehashed. Sometimes this is because new posters ask about this information, and sometimes it is because proponents of either side feel that their view needs repeating. But overall these threads have contained lots of useful information about a topic that like it or not is at the forefront of tennis news at the moment and will still be there for the foreseeable future. Pretending that developments regarding Maria's comeback and the positive and negative reactions in the tennis world are not actually happening and/or are not of interest to tennis fans (as @miffedmax put it, "This thread has run it's course and then some" when closing the main thread about Maria's comeback) is neither convincing (with articles being published in the press daily and with these threads having a large number of views and posters) nor helpful.

I understand that tennisforum might be concerned about legal issues (either real requests from Maria's team or perceived risk of such). If this is the case, it would be of service to the forum users to outright say that an executive decision has been made to submit to self-imposed censorship and to not discuss anything about Maria. It would be sad if one can talk more freely on the BBC or Daily Mail sites about tennis things than in tennisforum, but at least this would be understandable. If this is not the case, then clear rules should be posted about what is OK and what is not OK to be posted, with examples, and these rules should be enforced in cleaning the threads with infarctions issued, not used to close them.
We've not been asked by anyone to stifle debate. As I say, we're happy for posters to discuss things in a reasonable manner, but that seems impossible with this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeSpiritRebell View Post
It's a favourite sport to lock threads, censor any debate and remove posts. What's new? On this board you can pretend you agree with everything. Certain players can't be touched.
Not true at all. We don't want to spend our time locking threads, deleting/editing posts. We joined this forum because, like everyone here, we enjoy tennis and wanted a place to discuss it. Mods are volunteers on here, and they still want to enjoy the forum like other posters. And no one said anywhere about you having to agree with anything or only being allowed to like certain players. You can disagree with what you want and dislike who you want, as long as you don't do in an offensive way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapist View Post
This place is becoming more and more sterile every week. Slowly the fun is being moderated away and it's harmful to this board in the long run.

The most innocuous things are being deleted and I really don't understand why. Doesn't help this board to stay active. The excessive moderation goes well beyond Sharapova threads.
If you have examples, we can certainly look at it. No one is trying to stop people having fun and anything that is deleted is because it is against the rules.

I'm happy for posters to PM me, or any other mod/admin, if they have any major concerns about things, and we'll try our best to resolve the issue. But as I said earlier, we can't always please everyone and any moderation we do, is because it's against the rules of the forum.

The rules have always been there. They didn't just come into effect March 2016

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
post #20 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 11:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Renegade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 5,252
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

@John. , I think one reason is the (too) permissive policy regarding offensive and insulting posts (at least in my opinion). I often see posts edited or deleted by mods with no further repercussions to the posters. The admins should use their right to ban those who are here only to insult or mock players and other board members. GM often looks like a cesspool which makes many decent posters to stay away from it.
Have you considered that even the site traffic might improve if said posters are being forcibly removed if they refuse to comply?
On the other hand said permissive policy only makes mods and admins job harder since the usual suspects know they risk very little when posting offensive and rude comments. They do it again and again.
What I'm saying is that the rules in place are good, but not enforced enough to make a real impact.
Rex59 likes this.

Simona - 2018 WTA Player of the Year & YE #1 - RG 2018 Champion
Ana | Petra | Garbine | Belinda
Giorgi | Dulgheru | Mitu | Olaru | Krunic
Justine | Li Na
Federer
Renegade is offline  
post #21 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
@John. , I think one reason is the (too) permissive policy regarding offensive and insulting posts (at least in my opinion). I often see posts edited or deleted by mods with no further repercussions to the posters. The admins should use their right to ban those who are here only to insult or mock players and other board members. GM often looks like a cesspool which makes many decent posters to stay away from it.
Have you considered that even the site traffic might improve if said posters are being forcibly removed if they refuse to comply?
On the other hand said permissive policy only makes mods and admins job harder since the usual suspects know they risk very little when posting offensive and rude comments. They do it again and again.
What I'm saying is that the rules in place are good, but not enforced enough to make a real impact.
Posters don't know what repercussions there are for other posters that break the rules as we don't share that information (unless they are banned). Again, banning/infracting is not something we enjoy doing, and is a last resort. That doesn't mean to say we don't take action when it is required.

And while I understand the point you're trying to make, if we banned/infracted every time someone said something offensive or against the rules, we'd drive even more people away. We don't want this place to become a police state.

Again, we can't please everyone with the actions we take, but we do try and enforce the rules as much as we can.

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
post #22 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:25 PM
Team WTAworld
Senior Member
 
Marcus1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 50,798
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

I think of this site as a team effort as well and like everyone we don't read every thread so sometimes offensive posts can be left around due to us being unaware of its existance so we implore anyone who sees a post that is against the rules to report and let us deal with it and try and refrain contributing to a thread getting further derailed by posting comments to the poster who made the original offensive posts.
John. likes this.

Queen Vee, Super Rena, Krazy Kuzzie
Marcus1979 is offline  
post #23 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Mauriac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: On Echo Beach
Posts: 11,308
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by John. View Post
It's not that we are trying to stifle debate, but the threads about Maria have been going round in circles for over a year now. While we understand that it's an important topic and posters want to discuss it, it seems that some are unable to do this and stick to the rules of the forum at the same time. That's despite numerous warnings in the multiple threads about the topic. The original thread that we closed had numerous clean ups due to bickering, offensive posting, attacking players (not just Maria), off topic discussion. Each time it was reopened, posters were asked to stay on topic. We try to be as fair as we can, and we know we can't please everyone, but how many times can we say the same thing without taking, what we felt, was the only course of action



We've not been asked by anyone to stifle debate. As I say, we're happy for posters to discuss things in a reasonable manner, but that seems impossible with this topic.



Not true at all. We don't want to spend our time locking threads, deleting/editing posts. We joined this forum because, like everyone here, we enjoy tennis and wanted a place to discuss it. Mods are volunteers on here, and they still want to enjoy the forum like other posters. And no one said anywhere about you having to agree with anything or only being allowed to like certain players. You can disagree with what you want and dislike who you want, as long as you don't do in an offensive way.



If you have examples, we can certainly look at it. No one is trying to stop people having fun and anything that is deleted is because it is against the rules.

I'm happy for posters to PM me, or any other mod/admin, if they have any major concerns about things, and we'll try our best to resolve the issue. But as I said earlier, we can't always please everyone and any moderation we do, is because it's against the rules of the forum.

The rules have always been there. They didn't just come into effect March 2016
John, thank you for taking the time to respond. As I said in my OP on the whole the mods do a good job and I'm sure it's not always easy - this is certainly not intended to be an exercise in 'mod bashing'. I take your point about some people not being able to debate respectfully and on-topic but it's a shame that those who can, and do, suffer alongside the offending posters when a thread is deleted or locked.
CrossCourt~Rally likes this.

Ash Barty - Angelique Kerber - Johanna Konta - Naomi Osaka - Nadia Petrova - Laura Robson - Aryna Sabalenka- Taylor Townsend - Heather Watson

Hold fast to dreams | For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird |That cannot fly.
- Langston Hughes
Mauriac is offline  
post #24 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauriac View Post
John, thank you for taking the time to respond. As I said in my OP on the whole the mods do a good job and I'm sure it's not always easy - this is certainly not intended to be an exercise in 'mod bashing'. I take your point about some people not being able to debate respectfully and on-topic but it's a shame that those who can, and do, suffer alongside the offending posters when a thread is deleted or locked.
No problem, and I've not taken the thread to be mod bashing either. I'd rather if posters had concerns about the way things were moderated or if they needed further clarity in the rules that they reached out, whether it be a thread here or by PM.

And it is a shame and it was a last resort. Now, if there is new ground breaking news about Maria or her comeback, then a thread can be opened to discuss it. We're not banning all discussion about her, but for the time being, there is nothing new to report hence the decision to close it. I hope you understand.
Mauriac likes this.

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
post #25 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:37 PM
Senior Member
 
Renegade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 5,252
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by John. View Post
Posters don't know what repercussions there are for other posters that break the rules as we don't share that information (unless they are banned). Again, banning/infracting is not something we enjoy doing, and is a last resort. That doesn't mean to say we don't take action when it is required.

And while I understand the point you're trying to make, if we banned/infracted every time someone said something offensive or against the rules, we'd drive even more people away. We don't want this place to become a police state.

Again, we can't please everyone with the actions we take, but we do try and enforce the rules as much as we can.
I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.

Simona - 2018 WTA Player of the Year & YE #1 - RG 2018 Champion
Ana | Petra | Garbine | Belinda
Giorgi | Dulgheru | Mitu | Olaru | Krunic
Justine | Li Na
Federer
Renegade is offline  
post #26 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.
We would never ban someone for their first offence, unless it was for something really bad.

Here is the FAQ around Infractions & Banning. Hopefully that'll help you understand things a bit more.

https://www.tennisforum.com/220-site-...questions.html

Again, and to reiterate Marcus's post, we can't be online 24/7. We also can't view every thread when we are online, so there may be times when we miss things. That's when we need you guys to use the report button to highlight anything inappropriate/offensive etc

And closing threads is a last resort. We try and posts warnings in the threads were we can before we close them. It's only if that's ignored that we'll eventually close it.
Marcus1979 likes this.

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
post #27 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:51 PM
Senior Member
 
Matmagix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17,642
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
I think that's where you are (slightly) wrong. I'm not saying to ban people on their first offense, but allowing rude behavior is hurting this board more than you realize. For one rude poster there may be a 100 more that will be driven away. I know this is hard to quantify as those people won't even express their disapproval, they simply go away.
That's my perception and I've seen it shared by many.
Closing threads shouldn't be the solution. Instead, punishing accordingly repeated offenders should make things easier for everyone, especially for mods/admins.
A system based on an initial warning (whether by PM from a mod, or official record) and then subsequent action depending on severity of offence might clear things up a bit so that everyone is on the same page. I think in part there should be communication on what kind of behaviours lead to thread closure so that this can be avoided without needing to mention specific posters. I agree that those who drive thread closure are effectively disrupting the forum's operations and there should be consequences for this.

It seems anyway this is what is going on:

Thread activity goes out of hand - some personal attacks, player bashing thrown around.
Mods find a mess and close the thread for cleanup or even stomp it for good.
"What happened to my post(s)? Why is this thread closed?" Complaints about excessive moderation arise.

Of course mods are simply doing their job and don't need to say anything about what they do, actually, but I feel the onus should be more on the posters to know their responsibilities and the boundaries when posting so that threads do not need to be closed on a regular basis. This is where enforcement should have a more directed and personal touch. The posters who consistently break the rules will repeat offences but those who don't may have one misdemeanour, receive a warning and will generally not repeat offend. Pointing to the T&C may be helpful, those who sign up to the forum have to adhere to its rules. We don't need a strict by the letter approach but there should be concrete guidelines so posters and mods both have common agreement on where they stand.

Well done to Simona Halep on finally achieving her GS dream at RG. Never say die!

Li Na | Carla | Sloane | Venus | Kerber | Dasha

Evonne Goolagong-Cawley - Australian Legend: 14 GS - 7 singles

Dare to dream!
Matmagix is offline  
post #28 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 12:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Escapist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,680
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
@John. , I think one reason is the (too) permissive policy regarding offensive and insulting posts (at least in my opinion). I often see posts edited or deleted by mods with no further repercussions to the posters. The admins should use their right to ban those who are here only to insult or mock players and other board members. GM often looks like a cesspool which makes many decent posters to stay away from it.
Have you considered that even the site traffic might improve if said posters are being forcibly removed if they refuse to comply?
On the other hand said permissive policy only makes mods and admins job harder since the usual suspects know they risk very little when posting offensive and rude comments. They do it again and again.
What I'm saying is that the rules in place are good, but not enforced enough to make a real impact.


More like certain fanbases are extremely oversensitive and complain about anything, or even make issues into huge identity politics messes that get very heated and out of hand.

The board would have more traffic if everyone took themselves less seriously. TF is famous for messy nicknames and such, it's the heart of this place.

♛ A. Radwańska - S. Williams - M. Hingis
♔ A. Murray - P.H. Herbert - M. Kližan
Escapist is offline  
post #29 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matmagix View Post

Of course mods are simply doing their job and don't need to say anything about what they do, actually, but I feel the onus should be more on the posters to know their responsibilities and the boundaries when posting so that threads do not need to be closed on a regular basis. This is where enforcement should have a more directed and personal touch. The posters who consistently break the rules will repeat offences but those who don't may have one misdemeanour, receive a warning and will generally not repeat offend. Pointing to the T&C may be helpful, those who sign up to the forum have to adhere to its rules. We don't need a strict by the letter approach but there should be concrete guidelines so posters and mods both have common agreement on where they stand.
Just a couple of things on your last point, we're happy to explain any actions we take, and try to do so were we can. We're not any better than anywhere here, so we're as accountable for our actions as the rest of the forum is.

BIB, we do have a sticky in GM which has the rules of that forum. This is what we as mods adhere to and what we would expect the posters to adhere to also. There is also an announcement up (been there for a few months now) about the use of offensive nicknames. You also mentioned T&C's that each new member has to agree to upon signing up. I'm not sure what else we could add.

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
post #30 of 612 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 2017, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 27,786
                     
Re: Excessive moderation II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapist View Post


More like certain fanbases are extremely oversensitive and complain about anything, or even make issues into huge identity politics messes that get very heated and out of hand.

The board would have more traffic if everyone took themselves less seriously. TF is famous for messy nicknames and such, it's the heart of this place.
Let's not turn the thread into a fanbase slanging match.

Nicknames are fine. No one has said they aren't, but again, there are limits.

12. Nicknames

Please do not use obscure nicknames in headers. Proper names are preferred for headers and the mods/admins will edit headers as deemed necessary.

Nicknames are a fun part of TF and GM, and it is our policy to allow nicknames that meet reasonable standards.

Nicknames that are excessively rude, sexist, racist, homophobic, insulting to a player’s religious faith, imply illegal use of performance enhancing or other drugs, sexual promiscuity and other such insults will be deleted/edited. Excessive use of such nicknames will be dealt with through warnings and suspensions as deemed appropriate.

Acceptable nicknames may be used freely in posts without penalty.

This is my cool signature
John. is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome