European maps on social issues - Page 6 - TennisForum.com
 83Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #76 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2018, 04:39 PM
Senior Member
 
JaySix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,813
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
I've always heard that, but my personal experience in Paris with the natives was pretty good. They were always nice and helpful. It's believed that if you at least try to scratch some French, they will be nice, but if you already start speaking in English as if expecting them to know, they won't be. I speak absolutely nothing of French, but I learned a few sentences (basically: ou est la and je voudrais) and always started talking to people in French, so maybe it was because of that. Also lots of people there simply don't speak English, it's bizarre for such a rich country.
That's strange. All the French people I met in Brazil spoke English and were reluctant to speaking Portuguese

In this video they probably just ignored him, because he is a 60 yo man with a skirt and make-up. Transphobes!
This video is actually hilarious though. The way he curses at those people is proper Finnish humor.

WTA players that have brought me the most joy: Belinda Bencic Martina Hingis Serena Williams Naochi Aļona Ostapenko Дарья Касаткина Lucie Šafářová

Un giorno capiremo chi siamo
senza dire niente
e sembrerà normale
JaySix is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #77 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2018, 05:37 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius View Post
I've obviously heard about "gilets jaunes" it's all over the news.

By coincidence, I actually once participated in a demonstration in Paris when I visited the city in 1990s.

More than half a million people were then marching in the streets, protesting against some education reform. I think the then minister was called François Bayrou.

It looked like a big and peaceful happening though, with people eating & drinking and carrying some banners, no violence at all
The French likes to protest. Even too systematically in my opinion. Each president is the new scapegoat. Macron tries to stay focus but he must be careful. The specificity of these new protests ("gilets jaunes") is that there's no leader, no syndicate, it's just people organizing themselves, and half of them aren't even used to demonstrations. That's why it's serious.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #78 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2018, 05:42 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
I've always heard that, but my personal experience in Paris with the natives was pretty good. They were always nice and helpful. It's believed that if you at least try to scratch some French, they will be nice, but if you already start speaking in English as if expecting them to know, they won't be. I speak absolutely nothing of French, but I learned a few sentences (basically: ou est la and je voudrais) and always started talking to people in French, so maybe it was because of that. Also lots of people there simply don't speak English, it's bizarre for such a rich country.
Open each of your question with "bonjour" (or "bonsoir" if it's past 6 PM) and it will be fine.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #79 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2018, 07:06 PM
Senior Member
 
LewisCarroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,521
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Open each of your question with "bonjour" (or "bonsoir" if it's past 6 PM) and it will be fine.
That's right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaySix View Post
That's strange. All the French people I met in Brazil spoke English and were reluctant to speaking Portuguese

In this video they probably just ignored him, because he is a 60 yo man with a skirt and make-up. Transphobes!
This video is actually hilarious though. The way he curses at those people is proper Finnish humor.
He was also speaking Finnish, which, no offense, is a specially weird and bizarre language. Seriously, what the hell is that?

Anyway, if you met French people outside of France, odds are that they probably speak English as they are travelling. But French in France is another story. What was surprising to me was how much young people or some people who had to deal with foreigners (like a border patrol officer or attendants at a museum) couldn't speak a word of English. Also, it's the only country I have ever been where whites in general have a much worse English than the others.

https://twitter.com/Lewis_Carroll32/...04634804015105

"Peace with Honour"

(I'm trying to improve my vocabulary, so I'll use some fancy words here, don't be afraid of correcting me)
LewisCarroll is offline  
post #80 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 26th, 2018, 09:06 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
Also, it's the only country I have ever been where whites in general have a much worse English than the others.
I'm pretty sure Italian, Spanish and Romanian people struggle every bit as much with English and that's because of our "romance language". It's just very different and a strong part of our culture. We don't necessarily welcome other languages especially if they pretend to be a universal one. I admire Québec so much for that. And often complain of anglicism proliferation in French language.


Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #81 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 07:14 AM
Senior Member
 
LewisCarroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,521
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
Also, it's the only country I have ever been where whites in general have a much worse English than the others.
I'm pretty sure Italian, Spanish and Romanian people struggle every bit as much with English and that's because of our "romance language". It's just very different and a strong part of our culture. We don't necessarily welcome other languages especially if they pretend to be a universal one. I admire Québec so much for that. And often complain of anglicism proliferation in French language. <img src="https://i.imgur.com/aWFvbZW.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />

I'll have to disagree with that one. The Portuguese also speak a romance language and they don't struggle that much with it. Here in my country that we also speak Portuguese unfortunately the population in general doesn't always have the opportunity to learn English. But when one has he normally does it. I think the problem the French have with English is probably some anti Anglo Saxon sentiment that in certain way remains unconsciously.

https://twitter.com/Lewis_Carroll32/...04634804015105

"Peace with Honour"

(I'm trying to improve my vocabulary, so I'll use some fancy words here, don't be afraid of correcting me)
LewisCarroll is offline  
post #82 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 07:37 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,034
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
The Portuguese also speak a romance language and they don't struggle that much with it. .
Indeed, in the English Proficiency Index, Portugal is in the world's top 20.
Spain isn't even in the top 30.
Scrubaball is offline  
post #83 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 07:54 AM
Senior Member
 
Boogaloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 2,318
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petronius View Post
I've obviously heard about "gilets jaunes" it's all over the news.

By coincidence, I actually once participated in a demonstration in Paris when I visited the city in 1990s.

More than half a million people were then marching in the streets, protesting against some education reform. I think the then minister was called François Bayrou.

It looked like a big and peaceful happening though, with people eating & drinking and carrying some banners, no violence at all
The French like to protest indeed, but there are very different styles of protest.

There were for example the "Nuits debout" ("Nights awake") in Paris in 2016, which was a leftist intellectual movement, mostly peaceful (but without any real effect)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuit_debout

And then there are regular protests by truck drivers, farmers and other struggling professions, which usually result in destruction and sometimes even violence against people. Like for example the "Bonnets rouges" in 2013, which ended in the government withdrawing ecological taxes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnets_Rouges

The "Gilets jaunes" movement is closer to the later category in terms of reasons for protest, but much less violent because a lot of retired people and women are involved.
Boogaloo is offline  
post #84 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 08:57 AM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
I'll have to disagree with that one. The Portuguese also speak a romance language and they don't struggle that much with it. Here in my country that we also speak Portuguese unfortunately the population in general doesn't always have the opportunity to learn English. But when one has he normally does it. I think the problem the French have with English is probably some anti Anglo Saxon sentiment that in certain way remains unconsciously.
The Brasilians may be more fluent in english, yes. Maybe South Americans, too. The ones from Portugal, I'm not sure, but it would be certainly an exception. That people from Spain, Italy, France and Romania struggle with English is an absolute certitude to me. It's not a French specialty to be anti-English, actually there are more anglicisms in French than the other romance languages.

I wish the French was more defending his language actually, like the Quebec or the Flemish part of Belgium do.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #85 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 09:42 AM
Senior Member
 
JaySix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,813
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
The Brasilians may be more fluent in english, yes. Maybe South Americans, too. The ones from Portugal, I'm not sure, but it would be certainly an exception.
5% of Brazilians speak English The English classes in public schools are maybe once per week for 1 semester and they learn colors (blacky, greeny, orangee), the verb "to be" and how to say goode nighte.

However, if you have R$$$ then your kids might become very fluent in English, since the private schools offer high quality education. Some are even bilingual. Vast majority don't have the R$$$ for it though.

There's no need for English proficiency in the job market in Brazil, even if you deal with foreigners. Mostly because there aren't any fluent candidates to pick from. There's really no incentive to learn English and the government isn't pushing that language at all. The government doesn't care about investing money in public education, so there probably won't be a big shift in Brazil in English proficiency. Although with the internet and globalization and all, it might happen in some new innovative way, rather than classroom studies.


Portuguese are a bit more fluent in English indeed, but it's more or less the same in all those Romance language countries. Same in Germany and Russia. From my experience all those Romance countries + Germany, Russia, and Spanish/Portuguese in South America are really proud about their language and generally hold it in higher regard than English.

I must agree though. In my opinion the best sounding languages with the most swag are Portuguese(Brazilian), Italian and Spanish(from South-America).
Hugues Daniel likes this.

WTA players that have brought me the most joy: Belinda Bencic Martina Hingis Serena Williams Naochi Aļona Ostapenko Дарья Касаткина Lucie Šafářová

Un giorno capiremo chi siamo
senza dire niente
e sembrerà normale
JaySix is offline  
post #86 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 09:54 AM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
Also lots of people there simply don't speak English, it's bizarre for such a rich country.
That's an interesting remark. English is the first language the French learns in school (after the French of course), so the average French should know a bit of English (and English is everywhere to read in the media, we even have more and more english words used in french over the years, it is increasing fast). I think there's a real problem of language when it comes to pronounciation. You can detect by the accent how the French may struggle to speak english (as much as the English may struggle to speak French), and if we can read it, it's another matter to understand it. Myself I won't get a word if an English person will talk too fast. It's all the more complicated if in the street you're looking for something specific that the French does pronounce differently.

The peculiarity of Portuguese, is that it's a language that sounds quite aerial to me, unlike the other romance languages. So much that i'm not surprised to know the Portuguese is more fluent in English than the other Latins. English is also an aerial language - the way I hear it. A lot on nuances are essentially detected phonetically. The French is much more a litteral language, something that must be pronounced as it is written. The Spanish and the Italian is close to that too.

Beside that, France has a strong culture and deep roots and the French won't make the effort to speak other languages since they don't need to on a daily basis, unless they work in some domains where it is of course needed. But the average French in the street won't speak english easily, that's true, and it will even worse in peripheral France than Paris. Because, believe it or not, France is a real country with a real identity.

It's all the more surprising that the music and songs that top the charts in France is mostly english-spoken, when you barely had 5 english songs in the top 50 in the sixties (now it's more 5 french songs in the top 50). Even French bands sing in english now. When they sing in french you get the impression they care (at the expense of an international career).

I think there's probably much less Americans who speak French than French that speak English. I'm not sure there's a lot of English from UK who are fluent in French as well.

All in all, I think the benefit of the multi media is that the whole world get to hear and be familiar with many different languages and that's a good thing. It may be slow, but I believe more and more people are getting accustomed to various different languages, though I suspect French mostly sounds exotic to many ears. And what's interesting is to see some connections worldwide between very different countries that remain attracted or fascinated by each other.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #87 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 10:53 AM
Senior Member
 
LewisCarroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,521
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
That's an interesting remark. English is the first language the French learns in school (after the French of course), so the average French should know a bit of English (and English is everywhere to read in the media, we even have more and more english words used in french over the years, it is increasing fast). I think there's a real problem of language when it comes to pronounciation. You can detect by the accent how the French may struggle to speak english (as much as the English may struggle to speak French), and if we can read it, it's another matter to understand it. Myself I won't get a word if an English person will talk too fast. It's all the more complicated if in the street you're looking for something specific that the French does pronounce differently.

The peculiarity of Portuguese, is that it's a language that sounds quite aerial to me, unlike the other romance languages. So much that i'm not surprised to know the Portuguese is more fluent in English than the other Latins. English is also an aerial language - the way I hear it. A lot on nuances are essentially detected phonetically. The French is much more a litteral language, something that must be pronounced as it is written. The Spanish and the Italian is close to that too.

Beside that, France has a strong culture and deep roots and the French won't make the effort to speak other languages since they don't need to on a daily basis, unless they work in some domains where it is of course needed. But the average French in the street won't speak english easily, that's true, and it will even worse in peripheral France than Paris. Because, believe it or not, France is a real country with a real identity.

It's all the more surprising that the music and songs that top the charts in France is mostly english-spoken, when you barely had 5 english songs in the top 50 in the sixties (now it's more 5 french songs in the top 50). Even French bands sing in english now. When they sing in french you get the impression they care (at the expense of an international career).

I think there's probably much less Americans who speak French than French that speak English. I'm not sure there's a lot of English from UK who are fluent in French as well.

All in all, I think the benefit of the multi media is that the whole world get to hear and be familiar with many different languages and that's a good thing. It may be slow, but I believe more and more people are getting accustomed to various different languages, though I suspect French mostly sounds exotic to many ears. And what's interesting is to see some connections worldwide between very different countries that remain attracted or fascinated by each other.
So, to me pronunciation is not exactly very important. If one learns the language he may have a very strong accent but he can speak it. I'm not demanding a RP accent or anything. The problem is not knowing at all how to speak or understand. I don't know what you mean by aerial, but I can tell you that French is not a very phonetic language. It's considered the least phonetic of the latin languages generally. You guys really have a thing with unecessary letters at the end of words. What you pronounce is very different from what you read. German, Italian and Spanish are more phonetic languages for sure. Portuguese is not as phonetic as those but it's certainly more than French, I can assure you. In this aspect, I would say French s actually closer to English, where spelling be is hard and you kind of need to know the word to know how to pronounce it. Not by coincidence, French is the romantic language that phonetically is the most distant from Latin. Portuguese is the language that phonetically is the closest one to Romanian.

Anglo Saxons are notoriosly known for not learning other languages, so I don't think we should compare to them.

By the way it's kind of funny for me to see a French men complaining about English influence in their language because English already has a lot of French influence. I guess it's just how things are, languages influence one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
The Brasilians may be more fluent in english, yes. Maybe South Americans, too. The ones from Portugal, I'm not sure, but it would be certainly an exception. That people from Spain, Italy, France and Romania struggle with English is an absolute certitude to me. It's not a French specialty to be anti-English, actually there are more anglicisms in French than the other romance languages.

I wish the French was more defending his language actually, like the Quebec or the Flemish part of Belgium do.
The thing is, España, Italia and România are not as rich and developed countries as France is. So it makes sense that their English is not as good. Even so, according to the English Proficiency Index, France is still the last one of those nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EF_Eng...ficiency_Index (btw România is actually quite high).

https://twitter.com/Lewis_Carroll32/...04634804015105

"Peace with Honour"

(I'm trying to improve my vocabulary, so I'll use some fancy words here, don't be afraid of correcting me)
LewisCarroll is offline  
post #88 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 12:27 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

By "aerial" I meant "phonetic". A language that makes sense - or more nuances - when it's spoken (including accentuations), and whose understanding depends a lot on how it's spoken. In that regard English is a phonetic language to me, much more than Italian or Spanish. But that's my French perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post
You guys really have a thing with unecessary letters at the end of words.
starting with my first name, Hugues, that has more unpronounced letters than pronounced ones.

Quote:
By the way it's kind of funny for me to see a French men complaining about English influence in their language because English already has a lot of French influence. I guess it's just how things are, languages influence one another.
except it's much more one way than the other. The French has accepted a lot of english words and if you love the french language you can only find it a pity. Actually if you go to Québec you'll see a lot of words they kept French when in France those words have disappeared or are barely used anymore. When I read Quebec French I feel like reading old French.

We care about keeping french words. For instance we used to say "tie break" in tennis a few decades ago and chose to come back to "jeu décisif" to stand against the english wording. It may sound derisory but when it regards a thousand of cases, it becomes important.

How about the American market entering the french houses with hundreds of TV series over the last five decades, and French families starting to call their children "Kevin" or "Jennifer" when these aren't french names? It's just an example among hundred others, the American/English culture (the music or that thing called Halloween that never used to be a French tradition) has much more influenced the French one than the other way - and may I say, not necessarily in a good way.

And thing is, I dig the American or English music (for instance), but not everything, whereas the mainstream influence, the average French won't choose it.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
post #89 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 01:06 PM
Senior Member
 
LewisCarroll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,521
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugues Daniel View Post
By "aerial" I meant "phonetic". A language that makes sense - or more nuances - when it's spoken (including accentuations), and whose understanding depends a lot on how it's spoken. In that regard English is a phonetic language to me, much more than Italian or Spanish. But that's my French perception.



starting with my first name, Hugues, that has more unpronounced letters than pronounced ones.



except it's much more one way than the other. The French has accepted a lot of english words and if you love the french language you can only find it a pity. Actually if you go to Québec you'll see a lot of words they kept French when in France those words have disappeared or are barely used anymore. When I read Quebec French I feel like reading old French.

We care about keeping french words. For instance we used to say "tie break" in tennis a few decades ago and chose to come back to "jeu décisif" to stand against the english wording. It may sound derisory but when it regards a thousand of cases, it becomes important.

How about the American market entering the french houses with hundreds of TV series over the last five decades, and French families starting to call their children "Kevin" or "Jennifer" when these aren't french names? It's just an example among hundred others, the American/English culture (the music or that thing called Halloween that never used to be a French tradition) has much more influenced the French one than the other way - and may I say, not necessarily in a good way.

And thing is, I dig the American or English music (for instance), but not everything, whereas the mainstream influence, the average French won't choose it.
I understand where you are coming from. I also feel kind of bad when I see people in Brazil announcing black friday discounts or celebrating halloween because it's completely artificial for us. Makes no sense and It's just really cringe. However, in your case specific, I don't think it's so one sided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._French_origin

according to some sources, between 29% and 45% of all the words of the English language in a way came from the French. Gotta remember that in the middle ages the Normands dominated Britain and made quite some influence there.

I also believe that some words naturally need to be foreigners as much as we can like our langauge. For example, words related to computers, they are new things, there's no need to translate them. Delete, Download, Upload, Mouse there's no need to translate those words.

The name thing is kind of funny. Here in Brazil have a "foreigner" first name is pretty common since always. We had a president whose first name was Washington during the great depression for example. We have this thing with picking up foreigners famous names and giving them to kids, very often with surnames. First names like Wellington, Michael, Jennifer, Anderson and even Grace Kelly are quite common. Sometimes we get it wrong, Alisson is a boy's name here, like the goalkeeper from our national team. However, nowadays, naming your kids those names is normally associated with people from not very educated background and low social classes. It's a stereotype that they also love to put Ys, Ks, Ws in their names (as those letters are not used in our alphabet) because it's fancy for them (and very cheesy for everyone else), resulting in bizarre names like Jhenniffer, Yngryd, Karolyne.It's got to a point where people create names that just sound foreign. I've met people with names like Cléyferson, Klaenifer, Richarlison. Also common to have foreign names written like we pronounce. So we have names like Maicou, Valter, Uelinton or Vagner.

https://twitter.com/Lewis_Carroll32/...04634804015105

"Peace with Honour"

(I'm trying to improve my vocabulary, so I'll use some fancy words here, don't be afraid of correcting me)
LewisCarroll is offline  
post #90 of 271 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 2018, 01:43 PM
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Hugues Daniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Manosque
Posts: 34,488
                     
Re: European maps on social issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisCarroll View Post

I also believe that some words naturally need to be foreigners as much as we can like our langauge. For example, words related to computers, they are new things, there's no need to translate them. Delete, Download, Upload, Mouse there's no need to translate those words.
I had no idea you stayed with english words for that. In France we have french words for them ("supprimer", "télécharger", "souris"...) but of course in most parts of the Web it's in english and we're used to translate them.

Some words we have kept english. "tweet" for instance. Il m'a envoyé un tweet, il m'a tweeté... (and I hate this, I must say - it's like an aesthetic allergy)

what you said about the interconnections between english and french, yes, we have common words, but they were assimilated. After all, even the word "tennis" comes from the french "tenez" (or at least it's explained so).

Anyway, the cultural self-defense is a good thing.

Who cares of hypertrophic weapons when the player on the court moves like music?
Hugues Daniel is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TennisForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome