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post #31 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 06:53 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.

Bingo.

Gymnasts who are 5' tall have a natural advantage over those who are 5'8" or taller. After all, how many gymnasts exceed 6'? None, so far as I know.

Does anyone complain when those athletes grow too tall for their sport? Of course not.

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post #32 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Why is it "unfair" when Nature has endowed her with the gift of size and strength?
Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?
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post #33 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 07:44 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?
Melissa Bishop.

I'm on the fence re: this issue...
It's not Caster that she's born with testicules inside of her but it does suck for other females that compete against her.

I looked up the picture of the woman who has that world record: she looks like she had help... and not of the natural kind
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19. In the period from January to April 2006 Dr. Skalny sent very detailed messages to Ms Sharapova [...]: “Mildronate 1-2 X 10, repeat in 2 wks (before training or competition)”; “1 hr before competition, 2 pills of Mildronate”; “During games of special importance, you can increase your Mildronate dose to 3-4 pills (1 hr before the match). However, it is necessary to consult me on all these matters (please call)”; “30 minutes prior to a training session: Mildronat – 1 Capsule. 30-45 minutes prior to a tournament Mildronat 2 capsules”.
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post #34 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 07:45 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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But it works the other way around because we have TUE and those who benefit from it claim they want to have a level playing field. So what should stop us from cutting down on those who have an advantage if we help those who are allegedly disadvantaged already? (even tjough TUE is a grey area alone)
You're all over the place, man. What do TUEs have to do with it?

Many common medications are banned for athletes but they're human and can get sick so clearly they will need to be treated without running afoul of the anti-doping rules. I guarantee that something banned is in a simple bottle of over-the-counter cough syrup so TUEs will be needed for various mundane reasons. If a diabetic athelete needs insulin there is no issue of fairness at all. Other people naturally make all the insulin they need and the athlete would be taking insulin even if they stopped participating in the sport.

The playing field is level in that we don't allow a motorcyclist to take the line at a 100m race but we allow people of naturally diverse builds and height. Likewise it is not allowed for someone to take drugs specifically to gain a competitive advantage. We remove artificial aids to improved performance NOT the natural human variation that makes some people better at some tasks.
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post #35 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 09:20 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

common sense > science.

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post #36 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 09:34 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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You're all over the place, man. What do TUEs have to do with it?

Many common medications are banned for athletes but they're human and can get sick so clearly they will need to be treated without running afoul of the anti-doping rules. I guarantee that something banned is in a simple bottle of over-the-counter cough syrup so TUEs will be needed for various mundane reasons. If a diabetic athelete needs insulin there is no issue of fairness at all. Other people naturally make all the insulin they need and the athlete would be taking insulin even if they stopped participating in the sport.

The playing field is level in that we don't allow a motorcyclist to take the line at a 100m race but we allow people of naturally diverse builds and height. Likewise it is not allowed for someone to take drugs specifically to gain a competitive advantage. We remove artificial aids to improved performance NOT the natural human variation that makes some people better at some tasks.
Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.

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post #37 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 2018, 09:39 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.

Endogenous hormones is not equal to doping. If that were the case then EVERYONE dopes.
In fact, if the rule is upheld Semenya will have to take drugs to comply with it.
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post #38 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 2018, 02:24 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Originally Posted by Monzanator View Post
Either you're simply naive or have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Stop with this height bullshit. Take a closer look at how many athletes in endurance sports have asthma, I wonder what does it take for a healthy person to actually compete in these events? They're all sick and exploring the medical loopholes to the extreme. Do we need the stuff from weightlifting when entire nations are banned because of systematic doping?

IAAF blew it hard when they allowed Justin Gatlin, a repeated doping offender to compete like nothing happened and people went nuts over this jerk so now they will clamp down on Semenya hard. And I'm fine with that. Neither she nor Wambui nor Niyonsaba should compete without severe testosterone restictions.
What are the issues with Wambui and Niyonsaba?

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post #39 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 2018, 02:43 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Originally Posted by Perun View Post
Common sense makes it unfair towards women who work their asses off and who compete with all their might & cleverness. It's fundamentally wrong to leave standard women who make up 99% of society as in never allowing them to reach their true, full glory in favour of Caster and co. like what happened in Rio Olympics 2016 just for the sake of warped politics. It's highly offensive towards the majority.


But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?



"common sense"

''offensive to the majority''

"disadvantage real women"


Laughable, utterly laughable. As Semenya says,





She has a great site which answers her critics:

https://twitter.com/caster800m



There's an old story about sour grapes making the best whine ... uh, wine. And we see plenty of that among the malcontents who think Nature has given an unfair advantage to people like Semenya, yourself among them. But then, there are others who see things differently as does the following Asian commentator:


''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''

https://www.facebook.com/cnnsport/po...31032233579910



I join with this commentator based on my own life experience as an athlete being only 5'6" and today weighing 155 lbs (I weighed considerably less in my youth and am now well into my 60s). For many years I competed against athletes who were FAR taller and infinitely stronger than I was in sports such as baseball, softball, volleyball, running cross country, and in other athletic activities. Often enough I got my ass kicked on the playing field. But never once did I whine about it. Instead, when I retired from actively playing, I became a coach and trained athletes who were twice my size for well over twenty years winning several championships. Thus, I used my smarts to overcome the disadvantages you are whining about. That's what winning athletes do.
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post #40 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 2018, 04:45 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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"common sense"

''offensive to the majority''

"disadvantage real women"


Laughable, utterly laughable. As Semenya says,





She has a great site which answers her critics:

https://twitter.com/caster800m



There's an old story about sour grapes making the best whine ... uh, wine. And we see plenty of that among the malcontents who think Nature has given an unfair advantage to people like Semenya, yourself among them. But then, there are others who see things differently as does the following Asian commentator:


''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''

https://www.facebook.com/cnnsport/po...31032233579910



I join with this commentator based on my own life experience as an athlete being only 5'6" and today weighing 155 lbs (I weighed considerably less in my youth and am now well into my 60s). For many years I competed against athletes who were FAR taller and infinitely stronger than I was in sports such as baseball, softball, volleyball, running cross country, and in other athletic activities. Often enough I got my ass kicked on the playing field. But never once did I whine about it. Instead, when I retired from actively playing, I became a coach and trained athletes who were twice my size for well over twenty years winning several championships. Thus, I used my smarts to overcome the disadvantages you are whining about. That's what winning athletes do.

Caster is full of natural testosterone that works exactly like anabolic steroids, except that in that case you have a convenient excuse + political correctness pretense to defend ''oppressed'' minority - too much of a natural help to make it fair vs those who are biologically standard. These are not the same disadvantages that you're talking about.

It actually looks (when she's not taking testosterone-suppressing drugs) that she's clearly restraining herself from running even better times. Caster knows well that she'd not be able to trick any possible apologist or get sympathy if she ran 1:50 on 800 metres. That would spark enough controversy to never let her to compete as a woman.



''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''


That's the lamest counterargument ever found. Because her musculoskeletal shape, biological structure has nothing to do with her race and people outlook on it have nothing to do with racism - Caster is manly and seen as manly guy due to her possession of internal testes that work not because of our white-centric prejudice towards it.

People don't complain about some height advantage / disadvantage of people from different parts of the world because no one forces Asian athletes to compete with those from the West in some particular discipline, they on the other hand excel in some other disciplines where their possibly different constitution is an additional asset.

Last edited by Perun; Jun 15th, 2018 at 04:57 PM.
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post #41 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 16th, 2018, 02:44 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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What are the issues with Wambui and Niyonsaba?
Anyone who follows athletics knows what I'm talking about. Most people who defend Semenya haven't posted even once in those numerous athletics threads and I believe they have no idea who Wambui and Niyonasaba are.

Several of their competitors have spoken against them before ever since the Rio OG 800m final became a pure joke.
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post #42 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 16th, 2018, 02:58 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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But then one should not expect common sense with a Social Justice Warrior blinded by political correctness like the one you are. Ladies do not stand a good chance against well trained male or at least highly masculinized specimen. Would you like weightlifters of all body masses to start in the same category or boxers? Having 500% of testosterone, internal testes and masculine body constitution / stamina is not the same as being ''exceptionally talented'' woman as what you would like to promote. It just stands in logical opposition, countradicting the basic notion. Even in that societal view of gender - one cannot really say that Caster identifies and is like a lady with a straight face, watch documentaries about his life - you just can't believe it. Everything tells me that Caster Semenya is either an opportunist or some kind of pawn, both scenarios are equally sad and illustrates well about how ''progressiveness' leads to the ultimate loss of sanity. You can find plenty of such examples in Sweden.

For me it cannot be compared with tennis or whatsoever, girls know what they are doing and when they decide to go proffessional they already aware of their body limitations. While I doubt that women like Joanna Jóźwik, Angelika Cichocka or Melinda Bishop ever thought they would have to compete with woMEN.

I mean Caster Semenya is XY even and never had to go through menstrual period. Why should we disadvantage real women to favour exceptionally rare cases?


It sounds to me people on the right who want Caster out of track & field are acting like right wing versions of SJW's. She doesn't fit their worldview of how females are supposed to be "feminine". The same unscientific arguement to try and exclude her from competition is the same one people used in the 80's to try and discredit Martina and other Lesbian females who looked butch as if their athletic accomplishments should not count and they had an "unfair natural advantage" over more feminine looking athletes. Unless it's ever been proven she had outer male part's then her records should stand, and she should be continue to compete and not be punished,even if she is scientific anomoly she is still a female one.
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post #43 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 16th, 2018, 02:15 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Anyone who follows athletics knows what I'm talking about. Most people who defend Semenya haven't posted even once in those numerous athletics threads and I believe they have no idea who Wambui and Niyonasaba are.

Several of their competitors have spoken against them before ever since the Rio OG 800m final became a pure joke.
I know a lot of people in youtube comments say things about Wambui and Niyonsaba, but it just seems like hearsay to me

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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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I know a lot of people in youtube comments say things about Wambui and Niyonsaba, but it just seems like hearsay to me
I've read that they are also intersex.

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19. In the period from January to April 2006 Dr. Skalny sent very detailed messages to Ms Sharapova [...]: “Mildronate 1-2 X 10, repeat in 2 wks (before training or competition)”; “1 hr before competition, 2 pills of Mildronate”; “During games of special importance, you can increase your Mildronate dose to 3-4 pills (1 hr before the match). However, it is necessary to consult me on all these matters (please call)”; “30 minutes prior to a training session: Mildronat – 1 Capsule. 30-45 minutes prior to a tournament Mildronat 2 capsules”.
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post #45 of 79 (permalink) Old Jun 16th, 2018, 04:45 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Caster is full of natural testosterone that works exactly like anabolic steroids, except that in that case you have a convenient excuse + political correctness pretense to defend ''oppressed'' minority - too much of a natural help to make it fair vs those who are biologically standard. These are not the same disadvantages that you're talking about.

It actually looks (when she's not taking testosterone-suppressing drugs) that she's clearly restraining herself from running even better times. Caster knows well that she'd not be able to trick any possible apologist or get sympathy if she ran 1:50 on 800 metres. That would spark enough controversy to never let her to compete as a woman.



''So women in Africa need to become more feminine by the western standards !! When athletes in Europe/West have natural height advantage to Asian athletes...did we ever complain ?''


That's the lamest counterargument ever found. Because her musculoskeletal shape, biological structure has nothing to do with her race and people outlook on it have nothing to do with racism - Caster is manly and seen as manly guy due to her possession of internal testes that work not because of our white-centric prejudice towards it.

People don't complain about some height advantage / disadvantage of people from different parts of the world because no one forces Asian athletes to compete with those from the West in some particular discipline, they on the other hand excel in some other disciplines where their possibly different constitution is an additional asset.



Another utterly pathetic and laughable reply.

No one is forcing those women from competing against Semenya in international T & F events. No one forced me to compete against athletes were who twice my size and were possessed of twice my strength. But I did it, often won, and have the awards to prove it. As the great Harry S Truman once said, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. There are no tears in baseball, softball, or in any other sport. You compete and do your best. Making crybaby excuses as you do is for losers.

Just imagine if someone said NFL should not allow players to compete if they were over 165 lbs. Or imagine if the NBA banned players over 5'6". People would be enraged while others would be laughing at the leagues.

Semenya competed with others who voluntarily participated in sport. We have absolutely no evidence that she cheated in any way. Had she cheated then I would disqualify her. Until anyone presents proof that she violated any existing rules, she should be allowed to play.

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