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post #16 of 78 (permalink) Old May 4th, 2018, 11:53 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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It's clear beyond any doubt that higher levels of testosterone helps athletes. Semenya would not argue against lowering her levels if it wasn't true.
Maybe Ethiopian long distance runner's should also decrease their levels of lung capacity, it's not fair to other people born in countries with lower sea elevation levels.
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post #17 of 78 (permalink) Old May 4th, 2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Maybe Ethiopian long distance runner's should also decrease their levels of lung capacity, it's not fair to other people born in countries with lower sea elevation levels.
Why? Their lungs are not a male organ that produces male hormone that is listed as forbidden performance enhancing drug.
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post #18 of 78 (permalink) Old May 4th, 2018, 12:31 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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also a testosterone level bar would be a bad precedent (if even testosterone correlates with athletic performance). IE... one of the IAAF laws used to be to keep the testosterone under 10 nm/liter. Then the goal becomes to take supplements (for both girls who are lower and girls who are higher) to get just around 9.9. Isn't that the opposite of what IAAF wants?
.
That's not how it works. The anti-doping system will detect such hormonal manipulation. Those limits would only apply to intersex and transwomen.
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post #19 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 12:31 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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post #20 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 02:46 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

What would be interesting would be a separation of biology but also an understanding.

I think a possible solution is to treat trans as separate category; while not completely fair there is some degree of culturally-accepted fairness possibly? Let me think it through... I don't know if it would really be fair to have trans people compete with men either because even though their birth sex assignment is male, they are still biologically different, especially after transition. I mean in reality sports are never really fair to begin with on the basis of biology. Using sex as a separator is just a generally socially accepted way of separating people, something that most people accept as a binary, something that is kind of mostly based on science but obviously there are outliers.

I think this is also where discussion of equality gets a little messy too, and because the concept of equality in the minds of human beings is not really clearly defined. Even though people want to treat men and women with equality, we still permit and celebrate a separation of sexes in sports. In general, men's averages are higher then female averages, and in almost all sports, men's records and elites are better than women's records and elites. Based on this, it seems more people would have a problem with a trans female competing in female sports than a trans male competing in male sports. I know there are also some rare situations in which a female wants to compete on the boys team, and while this is not universally allowed/accepted, people don't really see it as unfair.

Some high school athlete in an article about the high school wrestling trans male competing in female wrestling said that she felt they should be allowed to change their gender but wait until after high school or quit the sport altogether. My suggestion is maybe rather than quitting the sport altogether, create a new competition? Or maybe society just needs to come to an understanding that this is messy and just let people compete in whatever gender the contestant feels they are connected to (maybe it needs to get medically/psychologically verified though) and accept the "unfair" ramifications, even though some people are already born with much more dramatic biological differences to begin with.

Even though women have always competed in sports with men, the notion of separate women sports is also long in history. Women's sports and adaptive sports exist in part because on average, an elite woman and an elite adaptive performs worse than an elite male. Putting trans in adaptive sports wouldn't make sense, and putting all trans and intersex in their own collective category would not be fair to transmen/women who can compete on the same level of some elite females/males, just as Oscar Pistorious was allowed to compete with non-adaptive men. Also while it is accepted to put women in a different sport than men, it is not accepted for other biologically-related differences.

I don't really know where I was going with the last paragraph but basically there is no clear cut answer that really is fair to everyone. The main reason this is such an issue is putting those who were sex assigned male or intersex into female competitions and this is seen as unfair to those who have felt and been identified as biological women since birth. However, what these arguments also ignore are biological differences between women and how it is also basically accepted inequality to put women in a different category than men. Perhaps this is why, according to the third place finisher in the article, she just wants to focus on the clock - "'To be honest, I think it's great they get a chance to compete and as long as they're happy, I guess, there's not that much I can do,' she said. 'The rules are the rules. The only competition is the clock. You can only run as fast as you can.' "

So IMO, having trans as a separate category would only work if trans wanted that. If they didn't, oh well. It's not fair to them to not participate, but they should follow the same hormone rules and other rules as men and women to keep it fair as much as possible within those sports. The rules can always change, but the rules should not be changed to specifically exclude or discriminate against trans individuals, only those who try to compete unfairly. People also need to realize that sports are not fair to begin with and maybe they will care less.

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post #21 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 08:35 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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Originally Posted by fufuqifuqishahah View Post
What would be interesting would be a separation of biology but also an understanding.

I think a possible solution is to treat trans as separate category; while not completely fair there is some degree of culturally-accepted fairness possibly? Let me think it through... I don't know if it would really be fair to have trans people compete with men either because even though their birth sex assignment is male, they are still biologically different, especially after transition. I mean in reality sports are never really fair to begin with on the basis of biology. Using sex as a separator is just a generally socially accepted way of separating people, something that most people accept as a binary, something that is kind of mostly based on science but obviously there are outliers.

I think this is also where discussion of equality gets a little messy too, and because the concept of equality in the minds of human beings is not really clearly defined. Even though people want to treat men and women with equality, we still permit and celebrate a separation of sexes in sports. In general, men's averages are higher then female averages, and in almost all sports, men's records and elites are better than women's records and elites. Based on this, it seems more people would have a problem with a trans female competing in female sports than a trans male competing in male sports. I know there are also some rare situations in which a female wants to compete on the boys team, and while this is not universally allowed/accepted, people don't really see it as unfair.

Some high school athlete in an article about the high school wrestling trans male competing in female wrestling said that she felt they should be allowed to change their gender but wait until after high school or quit the sport altogether. My suggestion is maybe rather than quitting the sport altogether, create a new competition? Or maybe society just needs to come to an understanding that this is messy and just let people compete in whatever gender the contestant feels they are connected to (maybe it needs to get medically/psychologically verified though) and accept the "unfair" ramifications, even though some people are already born with much more dramatic biological differences to begin with.

Even though women have always competed in sports with men, the notion of separate women sports is also long in history. Women's sports and adaptive sports exist in part because on average, an elite woman and an elite adaptive performs worse than an elite male. Putting trans in adaptive sports wouldn't make sense, and putting all trans and intersex in their own collective category would not be fair to transmen/women who can compete on the same level of some elite females/males, just as Oscar Pistorious was allowed to compete with non-adaptive men. Also while it is accepted to put women in a different sport than men, it is not accepted for other biologically-related differences.

I don't really know where I was going with the last paragraph but basically there is no clear cut answer that really is fair to everyone. The main reason this is such an issue is putting those who were sex assigned male or intersex into female competitions and this is seen as unfair to those who have felt and been identified as biological women since birth. However, what these arguments also ignore are biological differences between women and how it is also basically accepted inequality to put women in a different category than men. Perhaps this is why, according to the third place finisher in the article, she just wants to focus on the clock - "'To be honest, I think it's great they get a chance to compete and as long as they're happy, I guess, there's not that much I can do,' she said. 'The rules are the rules. The only competition is the clock. You can only run as fast as you can.' "

So IMO, having trans as a separate category would only work if trans wanted that. If they didn't, oh well. It's not fair to them to not participate, but they should follow the same hormone rules and other rules as men and women to keep it fair as much as possible within those sports. The rules can always change, but the rules should not be changed to specifically exclude or discriminate against trans individuals, only those who try to compete unfairly. People also need to realize that sports are not fair to begin with and maybe they will care less.
A separate category will make the liberals riot about discrimination again. Your logic is pure bullshit.

The only solution is biological. Put the restrictor plates on Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba. Funny how "women who feel like men" never compete in the men's division. It's ALWAYS the other way around. You know where the genetical advantage lies

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post #22 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 08:59 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

Why are people lumping transgender athletes a seperate issue to Caster's situation. Caster was born a biological female who happen's to have a condition that gives her more testorterone,this is not an issue of "she identifies" as a female she was biologically born a female. The new testosterone level ruling is bigoted plain and simple
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post #23 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 09:23 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

The modern world has produced many new problems and issues and society is struggling to catch up. The IAAF has made a rather clumsy attempt to deal with Caster's (and any who might be like her) situation. If she is biologically a woman and just happens to have high levels of testosterone then that's just a characteristic that helps her (or might help her) perform well in her sport. Let's face it, all elite athletes are 'outliers' one way or another because to get to the very pinnacle of sport these days, simply working hard isn't enough.
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post #24 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 09:42 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

The question is, is she a biological woman. Caster was born with testicles which is the reason for the higher levels of testosterone

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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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A separate category will make the liberals riot about discrimination again. Your logic is pure bullshit.

The only solution is biological. Put the restrictor plates on Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba. Funny how "women who feel like men" never compete in the men's division. It's ALWAYS the other way around. You know where the genetical advantage lies
Harsh words. You can't articulate how my logic is bullshit , and then you basically say the same thing I did in one part.

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post #26 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 2018, 10:34 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.
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post #27 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 01:33 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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I lean towards the view that if Semenya's female with a natural advantage in testosterone levels that's just a tough cookie for her competitors.
We don't require that unusually tall women somehow reduce their height before they can play tennis against Putintseva and Cibulkova.
This is pure genetics that's making all the difference. Testosterone doesn't translate to one's height

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Harsh words. You can't articulate how my logic is bullshit , and then you basically say the same thing I did in one part.
Your main idea of creating a separate category for trans people is bullshit Biology should be the deciding factor and we should rule out all the politics and equal rights. Semenya is anything but equal and was handed restrictions before. You probably have no idea who Jarmila Kratochvilova is but Semenya could have broken her WR if only she wanted to and that's when the real uproar would happen. However she's smart enough not to go there.

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post #28 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 09:27 AM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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This is pure genetics that's making all the difference. Testosterone doesn't translate to one's height
I don't understand the point you're making.

There's certainly a hormonal basis for height (one cause of dwarfism is low growth hormone) but that wasn't MY point.
My point is that there are many instances when we don't handicap people who have natural advantages in a sport.

In fact we comment on their good fortune for having extra reach or longer strides etc.
So if a great comes along who has a gift from nature (freakish height, testosterone, lung capacity, w/e) and dominates as a result I don't see it as unfair.
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post #29 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 02:25 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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I don't understand the point you're making.

There's certainly a hormonal basis for height (one cause of dwarfism is low growth hormone) but that wasn't MY point.
My point is that there are many instances when we don't handicap people who have natural advantages in a sport.

In fact we comment on their good fortune for having extra reach or longer strides etc.
So if a great comes along who has a gift from nature (freakish height, testosterone, lung capacity, w/e) and dominates as a result I don't see it as unfair.
But it works the other way around because we have TUE and those who benefit from it claim they want to have a level playing field. So what should stop us from cutting down on those who have an advantage if we help those who are allegedly disadvantaged already? (even tjough TUE is a grey area alone)

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post #30 of 78 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 2018, 06:50 PM
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Re: Caster Semenya and the IAAF - a ruling lacking scientific backing

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No.
It's about countries who specifically search for athletes like Caster to get victories. Caster has an unfair advantage (and at least few others - the number of them is getting higher and higher, no wonder why) over other women.


Why is it "unfair" when Nature has endowed her with the gift of size and strength?
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