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post #181 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 10:59 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

Still waiting for certain people to explain why Israel had no right to defend itself when Hamas spokespeople themselves admit these protests are violent and 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas terrorists.
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post #182 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 11:12 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Still waiting for certain people to explain why Israel had no right to defend itself when Hamas spokespeople themselves admit these protests are violent and 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas terrorists.
Gaza Strip belongs to the State of Israel. The bigger question is why Israel allows Hamas to run the show within it's own borders? Instead of "defending themselves" they should burn the terrorist house down but they're not doing so. Syria, Jordan & Egipt are at their weakest since the Six Day War. What are they waiting for?

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Interesting thoughts, it could be possible, wouldn't put anything past him. Think about it, Israel isn't a democratic state, they don't believe in equality for all.
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post #183 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 11:17 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Gaza Strip belongs to the State of Israel. The bigger question is why Israel allows Hamas to run the show within it's own borders? Instead of "defending themselves" they should burn the terrorist house down but they're not doing so. Syria, Jordan & Egipt are at their weakest since the Six Day War. What are they waiting for?
Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, pulling every single Jew out of there (including people I know) so Palestinians could govern themselves.

At the time, most Jews were probably against it.

But the argument was that if Israel did this, Gazans would have no excuse for terrorism again. The world pretty much acknowledged that doing it would show that Israel has done more than it should, and any further strife would be obviously the fault of Gazans.

Unfortunately, Gazans used that opportunity to elect a terrorist organisation to their government and turned Gaza into the global hotspot of terrorism.

The world seems to have forgotten both a) that Israel withdrew from Gaza so peace could be achieved, and b) that Gazans themselves chose this terrorist organisation to govern them.

They literally chose the people who would be slaughtering them for years to come.

Why?

Because hurting Israel and Jews has always been more important to them than building their own state.

Sad.
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post #184 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 11:23 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

Si vis pacem, para bellum

The only way there will be "peace" in Gaza Strip is when another local war errupts there. Let's face it, this will be more of a raid then actual war. I wouldn't see it lasting more than couple of weeks before the Hamas gets blown up into pieces.

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post #185 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 11:35 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Originally Posted by ishgever View Post
Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, pulling every single Jew out of there (including people I know) so Palestinians could govern themselves.

At the time, most Jews were probably against it.

But the argument was that if Israel did this, Gazans would have no excuse for terrorism again. The world pretty much acknowledged that doing it would show that Israel has done more than it should, and any further strife would be obviously the fault of Gazans.

Unfortunately, Gazans used that opportunity to elect a terrorist organisation to their government and turned Gaza into the global hotspot of terrorism.

The world seems to have forgotten both a) that Israel withdrew from Gaza so peace could be achieved, and b) that Gazans themselves chose this terrorist organisation to govern them.

They literally chose the people who would be slaughtering them for years to come.

Why?

Because hurting Israel and Jews has always been more important to them than building their own state.

Sad.
You do make good points. The US for all it's faults doesn't tolerate terrorists organizations not even a little bit, however, the same can't be said for other regional powers in Eastern Block Europe, hint hint, referring to you Putin. Anyway, we should look more into this that you bring up instead of just going on a killing spree just because we suspect people of being terrorists, try to resolve a peace treaty, never give up on trying to create peace regardless of the situation.
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post #186 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 11:40 AM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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You do make good points. The US for all it's faults doesn't tolerate terrorists organizations not even a little bit, however, the same can't be said for other regional powers in Eastern Block Europe, hint hint, referring to you Putin. Anyway, we should look more into this that you bring up instead of just going on a killing spree just because we suspect people of being terrorists, try to resolve a peace treaty, never give up on trying to create peace regardless of the situation.
The sad thing is that they've admitted to being terrorists. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and they've admitted that 50 of the 62 killed were Hamas members and that the protests were not peaceful.

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post #187 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 12:12 PM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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The sad thing is that they've admitted to being terrorists. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and they've admitted that 50 of the 62 killed were Hamas members and that the protests were not peaceful.

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post #188 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Originally Posted by ishgever View Post
Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, pulling every single Jew out of there (including people I know) so Palestinians could govern themselves.

At the time, most Jews were probably against it.

But the argument was that if Israel did this, Gazans would have no excuse for terrorism again. The world pretty much acknowledged that doing it would show that Israel has done more than it should, and any further strife would be obviously the fault of Gazans.

Unfortunately, Gazans used that opportunity to elect a terrorist organisation to their government and turned Gaza into the global hotspot of terrorism.

The world seems to have forgotten both a) that Israel withdrew from Gaza so peace could be achieved, and b) that Gazans themselves chose this terrorist organisation to govern them.

They literally chose the people who would be slaughtering them for years to come.

Why?

Because hurting Israel and Jews has always been more important to them than building their own state.

Sad.
Oh please.

- Israel still controls oppresses Gaza. If it truly allowed Gaza to be an independent entity there'd be no issue. But the cowardly leaders don't want to do that because they are afraid of haing another reasonably strong state on their border.

- The hypocrisy of Israeli leaders is underscored in a recent article pointing out what Israeli leaders said about blockades when it was the country being blockaded.

The blockade is by definition an act of war, imposed and enforced through armed violence. Never in history have blockade and peace existed side by side. https://theintercept.com/2018/05/16/...e-six-day-war/
- Hamas is not a terrorist organization. It was but has ceased to be that. Hamas is much like the ANC was in South Africa. And even if factions of Hamas do support terrorism it doesn't translate that cold-blooded murder of anyone in any part of the party is justified.

- The rest of your post is the usual oppressor drivel "we are the good people and those bad people want to harm us."

And, as always you ignore the fact that many notable Jews have been, and are speaking, out against the brutality of the Israeli regime. And that polls show that most Jews in the US do not support that brutality. You also use "right to defend" (which you know almost everyone agrees with) as if it means "any and all actions no matter how brutal or murderous are justified."
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post #189 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 12:39 PM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, pulling every single Jew out of there (including people I know) so Palestinians could govern themselves.

At the time, most Jews were probably against it.

But the argument was that if Israel did this, Gazans would have no excuse for terrorism again. The world pretty much acknowledged that doing it would show that Israel has done more than it should, and any further strife would be obviously the fault of Gazans.

Unfortunately, Gazans used that opportunity to elect a terrorist organisation to their government and turned Gaza into the global hotspot of terrorism.

The world seems to have forgotten both a) that Israel withdrew from Gaza so peace could be achieved, and b) that Gazans themselves chose this terrorist organisation to govern them.

They literally chose the people who would be slaughtering them for years to come.

Why?

Because hurting Israel and Jews has always been more important to them than building their own state.

Sad.
You're kidding yourself with the bolded. Israel's disengagement from Gaza had absolute squat to do with facilitating the peace process and making concessions to Palestininans. Absolutely nothing to do with that. Sharon's own statements made it clear it was to consolidate security around the area by isolating Gaza and securing and controlling its perimeter. The chief reason for the disengagement was the demographic threat to the Jewish minority of the Palestinian population in Gaza: explicitly cited by both Sharon and Shimon Peres. You're making it sound like it was some grand gesture of goodwill to the Palestinians. It never addressed the occupation and simultaneously, settlements were being expanded in the West Bank.

A just peace is possible. Israel is at peace with Jordan, a former mortal enemy. The nihilistic view that Palestinians have no interest in peace regardless of what Israel does is false.
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post #190 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

Killing Gaza



Israel’s blockade of Gaza—where trapped Palestinians for the past seven weeks have held nonviolent protests along the border fence with Israel, resulting in scores of dead and some 6,000 wounded by Israeli troops—is one of the world’s worst humanitarian disasters. Yet the horror that is Gaza, where 2 million people live under an Israeli siege without adequate food, housing, work, water and electricity, where the Israeli military routinely uses indiscriminate and disproportionate violence to wound and murder, and where almost no one can escape, is rarely documented. Max Blumenthal and Dan Cohen’s powerful new film, “Killing Gaza,” offers an unflinching and moving portrait of a people largely abandoned by the outside world, struggling to endure.

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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

Two Tikkun perspectives on Gaza, Israel and Palestine - 1


Below are two perspectives both of which deserve to be taken seriously even though they differ in tone and direction. Tikkun has always supported open debate and disagreement among those committed to healing and transforming the world. Or as the Jewish tradition said, when rabbis Hillel and Shamai appealed to the heavenly God to resolve which position was most in accord with the divine will, the voice from heaven responded “this one AND this one are both the words of the living God.”

Zionism has Become an Existential Threat—to Jews
by Mark LeVine

With each new death in Gaza the Israeli government is not only sealing the judgement of history as to the irredeemably racist and violent core of Zionist nationalism, it is also flashing a giant red light at Jews everywhere, warning us that the movement started ostensibly to protect and normalize Jewish existence has become an existential threat—to Jews.

What else can one reasonably conclude when a new American embassy is opened to great fanfare in Jerusalem, its inauguration “blessed” by two pastors who openly call for the eternal damnation of the Jews as Israeli and Diaspora Jewish leaders beam with pride and sip champagne, while sixty miles away young Jews, in the name of their religion, massacre dozen of unarmed Palestinian women, men, children, elderly and young with utter inhumanity and impunity.

The increasingly fascistic Jewish nationalism of the State of Israel and its supporters in the organized Jewish communities of the Diaspora is widening a split within world Jewry, one that won’t be reconciled through dialog and understanding precisely because the choice is so stark and ground for compromise non-existent. Globally there is a Jewish population of some 15 million souls. Well over half of them (about a third of American Jews, most Israeli Jews and the large majority of other Diaspora Jews) more or less enthusiastically support an unending and brutal colonial Occupation and Apartheid regime, an illegal and unconscionable dispossession of the colonized population of its lands and resources, the unremitting if spasmodic ethnic cleansing of the land, the increasingly genocidal rhetoric of the political leadership, and the insidious transformation of Jewish history, culture and faith these policies both demand and inevitably produce.

Those opposed to these policies, comprising a small percentage of Israeli Jews, a somewhat larger percentage of the global Diaspora, and the (sadly still too silent) majority of American Jews, have little power and even less room for manoeuvre, as they are squeezed between a rising tide of nationalism and anti-Semitism in their home countries and a Judaism in practice that is completely alien to the humanistic values of justice, mercy and equality which they always assumed represented the core of their identity.

We are quickly facing a moment of rupture potentially as great as that which split Islam after the death of the Prophet Muhammad or Christianity after Luther’s challenge to the Church. But with well over 1 billion adherents each, Christianity and Islam are simply too big to fail, even if they have literally split over core issues of theology and power. With comparative so few adherents Judaism is in a much more precarious position and cannot easily survive the kind of split that fundamentally divided the other Abrahamic faiths into competing and often warring factions. Quite simply, when the Prime Minister of Israel and the Jewish children of the President of the United States openly cavort with Christians preaching eternal hellfire for Jews and Muslim monarchs who’ve spent untold billions to spread the most viciously anti-Semitic ideology since Nazism then the Jewish people are in mortal danger indeed.


[-------- snipped ---------------]

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post #192 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

Two Tikkun perspectives on Gaza, Israel and Palestine - 2


Mourning for Gaza, Israel, and Palestine
by Rabbi Michael Lerner



On May 14, 2018 Israel raised the number of Gazan mostly unarmed civilians it had killed to close to 100, and the number wounded to several thousand. Its actions will go down in Jewish history as the height of the Netanyahu government’s ethical blindness and arrogance. All people of conscience should make May 14th an annual day of mourning for the Gazans and for the fate of all Palestinians living under occupation (whether in the form of military occupation in the West Bank or in the form of blockade and cutting off of electricity, food and medical supplies, and much more).

The excuses given by Israeli hasbara (explanation/propaganda) are pathetic:

1. “Israel has a right to defend itself.” Of course it does. But it does not have the right to occupy another people for 50 years and subject them to deprivation of freedom and self-determination. Moreover, there is no threat to Israel from the Palestinian people–Israel has one of the most powerful military forces in the entire world, and the Palestinians do not have an air force, a navy, tanks, or anything else that could over-run Israel.

2. “The army (IDF) was endangered by a few of the demonstrators who were armed with Molotov cocktails and were creating a smokescreen by burning tires” The IDF could have withdrawn a few hundred feet and would not have faced any danger. They were not facing missiles, but only what a few individuals could throw in their direction.

3. “The Gazans were intent on cutting through the border fence and would have then been a terrorist threat.” If Israel had warned Gazans that anyone crossing into Israel would have been shot, that would have prevented most of the deaths and injuries. Most of the Gazans were at the fence to demonstrate their desire to return to their homes taken by Israel in the aftermath of the 1948 war. It was not their intent to do that immediately. Most of those who would have crossed over the border would have been apprehended and imprisoned. The Israeli Army has a huge number of fighters at any given time and they could easily have stopped anyone crossing the border without shooting indiscriminately into crowds of thousands of almost all unarmed civilians, injuring and killing journalists, medics, women, and children.

In short, there was no security (bitachon) reason for the slaughter of innocent people.

There were provocative statements made by Hamas and by some of those at the demonstrations. We in the U.S. peace movement know about this. We’ve been at demonstrations in which some people call for the overthrow of the government or engage in acts of violence against people or property. It was these elements that made it possible for right-wing media to portray the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrations several years ago as a group of violence-prone extremists and allowed police to disrupt the tent camps that demonstrators had set up. We would not accept killing and wounding random demonstrators as a legitimate response in these situations in the U.S. and they were not legitimate on the Gaza border either.

This is not to say that Israelis have no reason to be angry at Hamas and its followers. Hamas continues to insist that it wants to eliminate the State of Israel. In so doing, it provides a perfect partner to Prime Minister Netanyahu and the Israeli ultra-right-wing, providing the ostensible reason for why ordinary citizens should be afraid. And over the past decades individual terrorists have killed some Israelis and Hamas managed to send missiles toward Israel in the summer of 2014, though happily most of them were destroyed before landing. Yet the Israeli people spent hours each day in bomb shelters, and that intensified their fears in a very concrete way. Just imagine if North Korea or Cuba had been able to do the same to the U.S. and tens of millions of Americans had spent hours each day for two months in air raid shelters–can you imagine what a boost that would have given to the militarists in any Western country the way 9/11 also did.

I do not raise this point to legitimate the Israeli army violence that is taking place on the border with Gaza. It is, let me repeat, ethically outrageous. There is no moral equivalency between the struggle of Palestinians for their own liberation and the policies of Israel to prevent that liberation. Israel has the power to create a solution that ensures its security and has the economic, political, and military power to do so. The Palestinians have no such power; what they do have is the growing support of people around the world, including many younger Jews in the West who genuinely care about the suffering of all people who have not yet achieved liberation, economic well-being, and security. In their arrogance, the Israeli and U.S. governments think that this moment of power will last forever, it will not. And sadly, both the American people and the Jewish people will pay dearly in the future for the immoral behavior of their governments and their silent complicity.


[----------- snipped -----------]

"These lifeforms feel such passionate hatreds over matters of custom, God concepts, even - strangely enough - economic systems." - Capt. J Piccard USS Enterprise

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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post #193 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 01:08 PM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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Si vis pacem, para bellum

The only way there will be "peace" in Gaza Strip is when another local war errupts there. Let's face it, this will be more of a raid then actual war. I wouldn't see it lasting more than couple of weeks before the Hamas gets blown up into pieces.
Truckloads of condoms for Gazans would be good for peace and for their poverty.
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post #194 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 01:18 PM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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- Israel still controls oppresses Gaza. If it truly allowed Gaza to be an independent entity there'd be no issue. But the cowardly leaders don't want to do that because they are afraid of haing another reasonably strong state on their border.

- The hypocrisy of Israeli leaders is underscored in a recent article pointing out what Israeli leaders said about blockades when it was the country being blockaded.

The blockade is by definition an act of war, imposed and enforced through armed violence. Never in history have blockade and peace existed side by side. https://theintercept.com/2018/05/16/...e-six-day-war/
I always thought the Israelis put up walls and a blockade because Palestinians kept blowing themselves up in busses and other public places, murdering civilians.


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- Hamas is not a terrorist organization. It was but has ceased to be that. Hamas is much like the ANC was in South Africa. And even if factions of Hamas do support terrorism it doesn't translate that cold-blooded murder of anyone in any part of the party is justified.
If you believe that, you are utterly insane.

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post #195 of 218 (permalink) Old May 17th, 2018, 03:03 PM
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Re: The Israeli Regime Murders Palestinians With Impunity

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joining hamas to serve your community doesn't mean every individual member of even most of the members are at heart "terrorists". Believe it or not, there are far greater nuances to these things that simply labeling your enemies as fundamentally evil.

And in all this, israel will not submit to an international investigation, which everyone but the us and israel agree to. The us vetoed a motion at the un demanding one. Without an investigation into this operation, all we have are these pointless, speculative propaganda wars.
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