Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events? - TennisForum.com
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

Arantxa Rus has won seven 25K titles since April, but is playing another one this week in Valencia and is through to the semis. She's in the Top 100 again, but is on the entry list for another 25K in Luxembourg later this month and two more 25K's next month in Thailand.

Should there be a certain point, either in ranking or title wins, where you're forced to play up? I get that she's doing it to secure main draw entry into the Australian Open and at one point this year it was appropriate for her play these events, but now it seems unfair.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 06:53 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

Yes, They have rules that keep top 10 players from living in Internationals, and this does hurt players who travel to the event and draw someone who belongs in a bigger event
But I dont what the rules are for 10k and 25k events
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 07:02 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

she is desperate to make AO MD, and desperate in general i guess
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 07:14 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

Ideally speaking, there should be a form of distinction for every tournament category both in itf and Wta. What I mean is that each tournament, based on the category or tier, should reserve entry to players belonging to a certain selected ranking zone: for example. itf 25k should be played by players ranked 150-300, meaning that players ranked 149 or higher can't sign on for that tournament;WTA 280 should be open to players ranked 16 or lower and so on.
That would surely help spreading wealth and the redistribution of the prize money, so lower ranked players would not have to struggle to make an income.

Such a solution, however, would also greatly penalize the tournaments themselves, as they would not be allowed use the star power of higher ranked players to bring spectators, income and interest around the event.

A good compromise might be that of limiting the maximum of lower tier events you can play in a year based on your year-end ranking.
For instance, a player who finished top 10 in a given year, should not be able to play more than 20 events the next year, limiting the impact on the other lower ranked players (there is a rule that already limits the number of MM they can play, but not the overall number when you include premiere 470). Just think about it: a top 10 player who plays small events gets the highest seeding, a r1 bye, a lot of free money and basically takes the chance away from other player to earn something. This has happened multiple times (this year with Bertens playing 26 events despite being always ranked top10 and even top 5 at some point) but is ultimately unfair if we look at it in a "socialist" way.

Another possible remedy would be that of allowing players ranked higher than the tournament field level to play as much as they want, but automatically giving up their seeding and possible r1 bye; as an example, if itf100 is open to players ranked 60-110, the n. 59 ranked player could still play, but as a non-seeded player; Similiarly, should top 10 ranked players decide to play an MM, they would enter as not seeded and would not get the R1byes.

As you can see, there are many options, but each one of them has flaws and possible negative outcomes; even just limiting the prize money(let's say a top 10 player plays a WTA international, they only get half of the prize money) would probably have a deep impact on the whole system.

Last edited by PrinceOnFire; Oct 18th, 2019 at 07:37 PM.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 07:35 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

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Originally Posted by PrinceOnFire View Post
Ideally speaking, there should be a form of distinction for every tournament category both in itf and Wta. What I mean is that each tournament, based on the category or tier, should reserve entry to players belonging to a certain selected ranking zone: for example. itf 25k should be played by players ranked 150-300, meaning that players ranked 149 or higher can't sign on for that tournament;WTA 280 should be open to players ranked 16 or lower and so on.
That would surely help spreading wealth and the redistribution of the prize money, so lower ranked players would not have to struggle to make an income.

Such a solution, however, would also greatly penalize the tournaments themselves, as they would not be allowed use the star power of higher ranked players to bring spectators, income and interest around the event.

A good compromise might be that of limiting the maximum of lower tier events you can play in a year based on your year-end ranking.
For instance, a player who finished top 10 in a given year, should not be able to play more than 20 events the next year, limiting the impact on the other lower ranked players (there is a rule that already limits the number of MM they can play, but not the overall number when you include premiere 470). Just think about it: a top 10 player who plays small events gets the highest seeding, a r1 bye, a lot of free money and basically takes the chance away from other player to earn something. This has happened multiple times (this year with Bertens playing 26 events despite being always ranked top10 and even top 5 at some point) but is ultimately unfair if we look at it in a "socialist" way.

Another possible remedy would be that of allowing players ranked higher than the tournament field level to play as much as they want, but automatically giving up their seeding and possible r1 bye; as an example, if itf100 is open to players ranked 60-110, the n. 59 ranked player could still play, but as a non-seeded player; Similiarly, should top 10 ranked players decide to play an MM, they would enter as not seeded and would not get the R1byes.

As you can see, there are many options, but each one of them has flows and possible negative outcomes; even just limiting the prize money(let's say a top 10 player plays a WTA international, they only get half of the prize money) would probably have a deep impact on the whole system.
And then there's the problem of small countries with small events and a few stars that tend to want to play in their home countries (and help promote the sport that way).
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 07:55 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

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Originally Posted by palttoonnappi View Post
And then there's the problem of small countries with small events and a few stars that tend to want to play in their home countries (and help promote the sport that way).
Plus the fact that entry lists can be made up 10 weeks prior to an event....so a 150 ranked player could enter a 25k but she could be ranked 74 by the time the event rolls around.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

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And then there's the problem of small countries with small events and a few stars that tend to want to play in their home countries (and help promote the sport that way).
A player occasionally dropping down for a home event isn't too big of a deal, IMO. Most of the smaller countries don't have more than two or three events per year. Somebody like Rus flying around the world to play 25K's in Thailand, when someone of her ranking should be playing the 100K in China/125K in Taiwan instead, is where the real issue lies.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 08:22 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

A true vulture!

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 08:41 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

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Originally Posted by RiskeFan1 View Post
A player occasionally dropping down for a home event isn't too big of a deal, IMO. Most of the smaller countries don't have more than two or three events per year. Somebody like Rus flying around the world to play 25K's in Thailand, when someone of her ranking should be playing the 100K in China/125K in Taiwan instead, is where the real issue lies.
Exactly. Mandy Minella, then ranked #112, vultured the 25K in Petange in her home country of Luxembourg last year and I had no real issue with it, as she gets to play a high level pro event in her country literally once a year and wasn't in form at the time so perhaps was looking for some confidence as well. It also helps the event to have their only "star" player to get at least a few spectators.

A few 25K's aren't a huge issue with Rus (she clearly needs them to keep herself around the 95-120 mark as she doesn't have a single SF above 25K level this year, and her last SF above 25K level was a 60K in May of 2018) but playing 13, with more to come before the season is over, is quite frankly ridiculous. She may not be playing at a fringe top 100 level but to come in event after event, struggling for 3 hours to put away girls that have about 50 points total on their ranking, is sad. She's clearly doing it to get that 40K paycheck for the AOR1 loss next year, but it is understandable as she's got to make a living I guess. It's just a shame that she's reduced to vulturing practically every month to fill a maindraw spot in a higher level event and get dumped out within the first two rounds almost every time.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 18th, 2019, 09:24 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

nope. Everybody should play at any level as desired. I do not see any problem with someone ranked close to the top 100 at the 25,000$ level. The WTA and the ITF are just not offering a smart schedule so its mainly them to blame. In addition for many players its not only the distance that matters but also the surface. If you do not want to play on hardcourt why should you play some 60,000$ events on hardcourts instead of entering a 25,000$ event on clay.


I think the only played to be prevented at the 15,000$ level anymore is Fernanda Brito
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 2019, 10:32 AM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

The real problem Arantxa may face is that coming to Aus Open, she may not be able to play at the required level... I think that she used this season to grant some confidence in order to go a step further next year.

Also if I remember properly she's currently trained by Julián Alonso, so she may fell confortable playing in Spain where her coach may be able to help her full time cutting down expenses

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 2019, 10:53 AM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

Arantxa Rus is coming for Fiona's wig again

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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 2019, 10:59 AM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

I think the rule should be similar to WTA 125K, where top50 players can only enter through WCs, make it top100 for 50k/25k and I doubt many will choose to play them and waste their wildcards count, only for their home events possibly.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 2019, 12:47 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

I quite like players having the flexibility to get points whatever way they want. Rus' method doesn't seem particularly sensible, it's unambitious, even with a 91% win rate at 25k level she's only just borderline top 100, she increases her chances of injury playing so many matches and it must be grim playing ITFs week in week out.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old Oct 19th, 2019, 01:12 PM
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Re: Should there be rules on vulturing Challenger events?

Most people are not aware that vultures defecate on their feet to cool off.
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