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Old Feb 1st, 2012, 11:36 PM   #2161
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I dont agree with the prize money at ANY of these events. That's ANOTHER corruption, raising spoiled 'champions' who can't stay grounded enough to stay HUNGRY in their sport. The French & Wimbledon women's title holders fell in the first round of the US Open, and the US Open champ fell in the first round of Australia. Becoming instant millionaires may well have something to do with this inability to maintain the standard of quality real professionals should be able to deliver. They are coddled and distracted.

Off topic of Evert but on topic with lack of integrity in the game being caused by a straying away from the standard of Evert's era & that which came before it.... I chatted with Ali (hingis-seles) when the hoopla at the Aussie Open came, about the guys wanting more prize money on the tour & Roger Federer didn't exactly stand with them on it. My example against more money was taking a player at random, like Ruben Ramirez Hidalgo...ranking 129... career W/L record: 63-112, best EVER result being 4R of a slam. Basically, HE STINKS. He's just not a real good player. Has tennis given him a living? OVER ONE MILLION 800 THOUSAND DOLLARS in 5 years! He makes more money than almost anyone I know, averaging upwards of $300k a year!

Tennis players are people who basically get to travel the entire world, as most of us will not come anywhere close to doing our whole lives, and never set foot in a dreary 9 to 7 office job. They got PAID to slap a ball around the net in the sunshine. (And not with any particular distinction, for the most part) I must say, I have zero sympathy for them.

Now, is tennis any different form this 'no-ceiling financial attitude' that has destroyed the integrity of our entire planet? No, of course not. But it's a spoiled, bratty, UNSUSTAINABLE trend that has been remarkably destructive to whatever topic you want to choose.
I agree wholeheartedly. When I was chatting with Frankie about this issue she also agreed and she thought if the prize money was MUCH lower, she thought probably more than half of the players wouldn't be in the sport. She thought far less than half of the players on tour truly loved the game and that it is more a profession these days than a passion. Which it was for those players brought up to play before the big money boom in the mid to late 70s. Sad really. That is another reason why I loved the 60s and 70s tennis tour so much - you just knew these guys and gals truly loved the sport and were passionate about playing the game. Not in it for a buck.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2012, 12:16 PM   #2162
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
See i dont agree with that... Chris absolutely caused those errors. She said, 'i see you hiding your achilles heel... i'm aiming every ball into the backhand corner until i see the entire court open for me to unleash a forehand cross-court winner' and she simply stayed patient enough to not change the (boring) tactic, and in-tune enough to not make an error before steffi's shots crumbled under the pressure. THAT'S what was unnerving Steffi....She had convinced herself she no longer had weaknesses and Evert basically said, "I KNOW you do...and I can still find them." Steffi's face got redder & redder, like a guilty child who got caught with her hand in the cookie jar, being revealed... and watching 5 straight games skid away like that got her edgy. So I dont think steffi let up, as their meeting a few months later @ Lipton88 showed. That was very hotly contested & Chris had loads of chances again....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmqy16MP4Ms
I couldn't disagree with you more. Up until this final, Graf had only squeaked out a tight French Open title on a Navratilova double fault, and then lost Wimbledon and U.S.Open finals to Martina. This was her first major final she was really supposed to win, and I think Steffi did suffer getting too close to the title, and got nervous. Evert, being the supreme tactician she was, saw this and immediately pounced on the opportunity. Chris knew the Graf weaknesses long before this match, and if she had had the chance, would have exploited them from the start of the match. Graf simply didn't give her the chance until she (yes folks, Steffi Graf) choked a bit. You could see the "now I've got you" look on Evert's face when she saw her chance. It had very little to do with Chris' play, and everything to do with Steffi's unforced errors and opening up the door for Chris.
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Old Feb 2nd, 2012, 08:49 PM   #2163
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by alfajeffster View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more. Up until this final, Graf had only squeaked out a tight French Open title on a Navratilova double fault, and then lost Wimbledon and U.S.Open finals to Martina. This was her first major final she was really supposed to win, and I think Steffi did suffer getting too close to the title, and got nervous. Evert, being the supreme tactician she was, saw this and immediately pounced on the opportunity. Chris knew the Graf weaknesses long before this match, and if she had had the chance, would have exploited them from the start of the match. Graf simply didn't give her the chance until she (yes folks, Steffi Graf) choked a bit. You could see the "now I've got you" look on Evert's face when she saw her chance. It had very little to do with Chris' play, and everything to do with Steffi's unforced errors and opening up the door for Chris.
OK but then why was their next meeting (@Lipton) in the same pattern of the latter-2nd-set of this match? That's why I included the clip... The commentators & Chris & Andy Mill all say she realized from the aussie match how to play her and that if she implements the plan to her ability (ie, plays exceptionally well) she now thinks she can win.

Whereas she just got slapped off the court in their 1987 matches... The 87 fed cup match in particular, chris didnt even seem to try. She just assumed she couldnt rally with Steffi...t'was sad, in truth.

That said, I very much like the idea that tennis is so mental that maybe Steffi was just having trouble closing but Chris INTERPRETED it as though she'd found a chink in the armor, and simply by seeing it that way, was able to have 2 stunning matches in a row --88 Lipton & 89 Boca-- just by mis-interpreting BUT BELIEVING that Steffi was totally beatable.

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Old Feb 3rd, 2012, 08:30 AM   #2164
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
OK but then why was their next meeting (@Lipton) in the same pattern of the latter-2nd-set of this match?
If this were the Steffi Graf admiration thread, I'd be cheeky and suggest that Steffi was feeling a bit vulnerable in the '88 Lipton final after having lost to Gorgeous Gaby for the first time in the Boca final the previous weekend. But since this is the Chrissie Marie thread I'll play nice and admit that maybe Miss Chris also had something to do with the closer scores of their matches at '88 Lipton and '89 Boca.

Quote:
That's why I included the clip... The commentators & Chris & Andy Mill all say she realized from the aussie match how to play her and that if she implements the plan to her ability (ie, plays exceptionally well) she now thinks she can win.

Whereas she just got slapped off the court in their 1987 matches... The 87 fed cup match in particular, chris didnt even seem to try. She just assumed she couldnt rally with Steffi...t'was sad, in truth.

That said, I very much like the idea that tennis so mental that maybe Steffi was just having trouble closing but Chris INTERPRETED it as though she'd found a chink in the armor, and simply by seeing it that way, was able to have 2 stunning matches in a row --88 Lipton & 89 Boca-- just be mis-interpreting BUT BELIEVING that Steffi was totally beatable.
I think that at least in the '88 Australian final Graf underestimated Evert a bit. After her semi-final win over Kohde Kilsch, Graf was reportedly seen out on the practice courts with a left-handed hitting partner slicing lefty hook serves out wide to Steffi's backhand. Clearly she was mentally preparing herself for Navratilova in the final and when she got Evert instead, she probably went in confident of winning and also silencing her critics who contended that Navratilova was still the true #1 at the time. From Evert's standpoint it likely also took her a while to get used to a completely new style of play. My take on that period is that Graf was the first top player who well and truly played the modern, graphite racquet game with baseline aggression of a different kind than Evert, a product of the wood era, had been used to. Evert now had to learn to deal with a new kind of player who could play attacking tennis and end points without ever leaving the safety of the baseline.
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"A couple of years ago, we nicknamed Steffi Graf's forehand 'Jaws'. And that music would go perfectly when she starts running in to the net, swarming on that little ball." (JoAnne Russell, during the 1988 Wimbledon final between Graf and Navratilova)
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Old Feb 3rd, 2012, 10:26 AM   #2165
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by samn View Post
If this were the Steffi Graf admiration thread, I'd be cheeky and suggest that Steffi was feeling a bit vulnerable in the '88 Lipton final after having lost to Gorgeous Gaby for the first time in the Boca final the previous weekend. But since this is the Chrissie Marie thread I'll play nice and admit that maybe Miss Chris also had something to do with the closer scores of their matches at '88 Lipton and '89 Boca.
I was going to go there, but couldn't remember whether it was 88 that Gaby beat Graf or not- there were so many times (including at Lipton) that Steffi lost to Gabriela in the State of Florida. It's not far-fetched to surmise that Graf didn't like playing there. All credit to Chris, though. She did start to play Graf a little tougher right at the end of her career.
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Old Feb 4th, 2012, 03:05 AM   #2166
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Interesting exchange of points of view, more so as I have never seen these whole matches. And I LOVE the way you call Sabatini, Samn! Never heard it before.
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Old Feb 11th, 2012, 07:37 PM   #2167
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Evert defeats Nav 60 64 in Houston 1988. The ceremony presentation reminds me why I hated Nav's guts. How ungracious and uneducated of her. Look how Chris hits back with grace and dignity. Must see...
Starts at 23:26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS8WTWvWz6o
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Old Feb 14th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #2168
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Be nice LightWarrior

I think Martina could have been a bit more gracious in this case, but hey a 6-0 set is hard to take when you've been in her shoes. And she was just calling it like she saw it. I'm sure if you asked her 10 minutes later she would have reacted differently-what came out in the heat of the moment was all emotion.

To me this was just what made their rivalry so compelling. Martina wore her heart on her sleeves and Chris was more controlled. Apples and oranges are better than only 1 option!

Anyhow, is a good match to watch? Surely this must have been a sweet victory for Chris.

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Old Feb 17th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #2169
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

From Peter Bodo article today...

"Hear No Evil: Chris Evert, who's frank and realistic but rarely given to broadcasting unsolicited opinions, has no use for shrieking. And she put a potentially enormous controversy into stark terms when she told the Times of London: "If a player shows up, plays one point and says (of her opponent's shrieking), 'Can I have the referee because it is a hindrance,' it would stop."

Okay, maybe not quite so fast, but. . . how could shriekers (by now, the word "grunt" is a misnomer in too many cases) deny that a scream is not a hindrance—especially when Serena Williams was controversially punished under the "hindrance" rule in the last U.S. Open final for exclaiming in a way that was certainly no more voluble nor distracting than the noise with which Maria Shriekapova or Victoria Screamarenka punctuates almost every shot?

Evert recalled how at the beginning of her career, Billie Jean King invoked the hindrance rule against her. It was over Evert's habit of making a first serve and then tossing the extra ball behind her, in order to get ready for a two-handed backhand. King claimed the ball rolling toward the back fence distracted her and her objection was upheld. Evert immediately began tucking the ball away."

I think Alfajeffster has asked how players dealt with Chris dropping that ball after her first serve, and how it stopped... here is the answer!
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Old Feb 18th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #2170
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
From Peter Bodo article today...

"Hear No Evil: Chris Evert, who's frank and realistic but rarely given to broadcasting unsolicited opinions, has no use for shrieking. And she put a potentially enormous controversy into stark terms when she told the Times of London: "If a player shows up, plays one point and says (of her opponent's shrieking), 'Can I have the referee because it is a hindrance,' it would stop."

Okay, maybe not quite so fast, but. . . how could shriekers (by now, the word "grunt" is a misnomer in too many cases) deny that a scream is not a hindrance—especially when Serena Williams was controversially punished under the "hindrance" rule in the last U.S. Open final for exclaiming in a way that was certainly no more voluble nor distracting than the noise with which Maria Shriekapova or Victoria Screamarenka punctuates almost every shot?

Evert recalled how at the beginning of her career, Billie Jean King invoked the hindrance rule against her. It was over Evert's habit of making a first serve and then tossing the extra ball behind her, in order to get ready for a two-handed backhand. King claimed the ball rolling toward the back fence distracted her and her objection was upheld. Evert immediately began tucking the ball away."

I think Alfajeffster has asked how players dealt with Chris dropping that ball after her first serve, and how it stopped... here is the answer!
Well, Evert seems to have changed her stance on the grunting issue as time has gone by. In her commentary during the 1992 Wimbledon final, she criticised Tauziat and Navratilova for complaining to the umpire about Seles' grunting, and suggested that they should instead have spoken to Seles privately in the locker room. Frankly I think that the grunting/shrieking issue can no longer be controlled without the players accusing the officials of double standards. Seles started this nonsense and she should have been told to shut up. She was allowed to get away with it, and now everyone's doing it.
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"A couple of years ago, we nicknamed Steffi Graf's forehand 'Jaws'. And that music would go perfectly when she starts running in to the net, swarming on that little ball." (JoAnne Russell, during the 1988 Wimbledon final between Graf and Navratilova)
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Old Feb 18th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #2171
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by samn View Post
Well, Evert seems to have changed her stance on the grunting issue as time has gone by. In her commentary during the 1992 Wimbledon final, she criticised Tauziat and Navratilova for complaining to the umpire about Seles' grunting, and suggested that they should instead have spoken to Seles privately in the locker room. Frankly I think that the grunting/shrieking issue can no longer be controlled without the players accusing the officials of double standards. Seles started this nonsense and she should have been told to shut up. She was allowed to get away with it, and now everyone's doing it.
The thing that always irked me about Seles shrieking was that she was silent in practice, while still pounding the ball the same as in a match, and some of her loudest shrieks during a match came on the rare occasion she was hitting a drop shot! I saw her practice several times at different tournaments, and it was the same- silent during practice against men, then volume in the match. It was definitely a tactic to mask the sound of the ball coming off the strings (this matters to an opponent more than people think). This tactic coupled with her nearly unreadable wrist action from the same open-stance really disguised and gave her a big advantage in getting on top of the point quickly and confounding most opponents. A big to-do was made of Monica silencing the grunt after the complaints in the subsequent final drubbing by Graf in that same Tauziat / Navratilova Wimbledon, saying it took away her firepower. I just think Graf was the far player on grass, and stayed more focused during a final that was so interrupted by rain and darkness that many other players would've folded more quickly- shrieking or not.
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Old Feb 18th, 2012, 01:07 PM   #2172
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Can you imagine ChrisAmerica coming out on court shrieking during her dominance in the 70s? Her ChrisAmerica status would've been quickly revoked, and she would've faced major criticism. If Martina had done it, she would've been banned from the tour!
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Old Feb 19th, 2012, 07:55 AM   #2173
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
From Peter Bodo article today...

"Hear No Evil: Chris Evert, who's frank and realistic but rarely given to broadcasting unsolicited opinions, has no use for shrieking. And she put a potentially enormous controversy into stark terms when she told the Times of London: "If a player shows up, plays one point and says (of her opponent's shrieking), 'Can I have the referee because it is a hindrance,' it would stop."

Okay, maybe not quite so fast, but. . . how could shriekers (by now, the word "grunt" is a misnomer in too many cases) deny that a scream is not a hindrance—especially when Serena Williams was controversially punished under the "hindrance" rule in the last U.S. Open final for exclaiming in a way that was certainly no more voluble nor distracting than the noise with which Maria Shriekapova or Victoria Screamarenka punctuates almost every shot?

Evert recalled how at the beginning of her career, Billie Jean King invoked the hindrance rule against her. It was over Evert's habit of making a first serve and then tossing the extra ball behind her, in order to get ready for a two-handed backhand. King claimed the ball rolling toward the back fence distracted her and her objection was upheld. Evert immediately began tucking the ball away."

I think Alfajeffster has asked how players dealt with Chris dropping that ball after her first serve, and how it stopped... here is the answer!
I don't know why Chris didn't just wear one of those Tracy Austin pinafore dresses with the front pocket. A perfect place to keep the extra ball. Now imgaine if Chris did that, just think how God awful cute she would have looked? !
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Old Feb 19th, 2012, 11:40 AM   #2174
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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I don't know why Chris didn't just wear one of those Tracy Austin pinafore dresses with the front pocket. A perfect place to keep the extra ball. Now imgaine if Chris did that, just think how God awful cute she would have looked? !
And let's not forget the pigtails and the distraction from the sun gleaming off those gorgeous braces! Plus, you couldn't help but stare at that cute little hooked nose. Marsha, Marsha, MARSHA!
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Old Feb 19th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #2175
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Re: Chris Evert Thread

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Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
I don't know why Chris didn't just wear one of those Tracy Austin pinafore dresses with the front pocket. A perfect place to keep the extra ball. Now imgaine if Chris did that, just think how God awful cute she would have looked? !
No, no, Chrissie would have looked even cuter wearing a ball holder a la Raunchy Snatches Vicario. She could even have demanded that the balls be the same colour as her pompom socks.
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Best left-right combination by a German (and that includes Max Schmeling): Steffi Graf. All she did in 1987 was knock Navratilova out of #1 and try to knock Evert out of the sport. (Mike Lupica in "The Best and Worst of Tennis in 1987", World Tennis)

"A couple of years ago, we nicknamed Steffi Graf's forehand 'Jaws'. And that music would go perfectly when she starts running in to the net, swarming on that little ball." (JoAnne Russell, during the 1988 Wimbledon final between Graf and Navratilova)
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