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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 09:06 PM   #181
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In regards to the pre-November '75 rankings dilemma, personally I'd find it extremely interesting if one were able to utilize the current computerized ranking system towards preceding years (particularly from '71 onwards) to figure out what the current official system would've ranked these players. Might this be possible (any stats majors around?)? We need some serious number crunching for this thread
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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 09:26 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Santorofan
In regards to the pre-November '75 rankings dilemma, personally I'd find it extremely interesting if one were able to utilize the current computerized ranking system towards preceding years (particularly from '71 onwards) to figure out what the current official system would've ranked these players. Might this be possible (any stats majors around?)? We need some serious number crunching for this thread
I'm 10000000% with you on that one, Santorofan, and from as far back as possible. I can't see how it could be achieved, though, for millions of reasons (cue rant on rankings, I'm afraid; maybe this should be in another thread):

Someone would have to decide which ranking system to use because there have been several (which makes comparing rankings even after 75 stupid imo). Would you have a divisor system or not (and for all or how many tournaments?)

Then, you'd need to decide which grade/tier to attribute to each tournament. Should that be based on prize money alone, as now, or not? Now it's fair enough in the sense that there is an established comprehensive tour but then there were various tours and circuits and players chose their schedules based on millions of considerations and constraints.

You'd also have to have a provisional ranking list to start with if you wanted to include quality points.

You'd need to decide a minimum number of tournaments for eligibility too. This has changed over the years as well. Goolagong-Cawley would have had a year-end ranking at the end of 77 under the system which exists now (as would King in 81), whereas she was underanked at the time. Conversely,
Monica would have been unranked in 93 had the previous minimum of 6 been applied.

Then you'd need access to all the results and that may not be easy, even from 71 onwards.

I really wish some stats wizard(ess or witch, whatever the correct term is)/women's tennis addict with the time and motivation to have a go would apply the same criteria right across the board from as early as possible to now and see what is thrown up. My guess is that many of the so-called records would be significantly altered. One also has to remember that all these ranking changes (plus the deal with Monica's ranking in 95-6) were politically motivated to some extent (e.g. to get players to play more, or to favour big-money (VS) tournaments in the early years), so there's that angle too.
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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 10:22 PM   #183
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As I suspected...

sounds like a full-time job and then some! Thanks for your input on this.
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Old Feb 26th, 2004, 07:59 AM   #184
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Fuzzy math!

Regarding the stats Andy posted above, seems Evonne had a better year overall than BJK in 1974 - won AO, runner up at the US O, won season ending Slims.. also had more wins over Evert (4/7 of Chris's losses), the most consistent player of all that year and a 3-2 edge over King in H2Hs. Also, while I note that although King lost only won more match that whole year than Evert, she also played eight less tournaments than Chris did (15 vs 23).

So who was it again that ranked '74 as 1.)King 2.)Goolagong 3.)Evert (Bud Collins?)? Perhaps they need get head examined, as evidently they got it all backwards! In retrospect, I wonder if King would even honestly agree with that '74 rankings assessment. Talk about fuzzy math!!
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Old Feb 26th, 2004, 08:28 AM   #185
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I just went back and added the surfaces won on in there, Santorofan. In terms of tournament victories by suface, on clay it's Chrissie 8, BJK and EG 0 (I think), on grass it's EG 5, Chris 3, BJK 1, Indoors it's BJK 5, Chris 3, EG 1 and on hardcourts I'm not sure because of Houston and Denver. On clay, there's no debate, on grass, Evonne's top but Evert won the biggest title and indoors BJK's top but Evonne won the biggest title. It's really really tight.
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Old Feb 26th, 2004, 10:56 AM   #186
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Guys your analysis of this period is nothing short of amazing.... I actually thought I knew a thing or two before all this. Thanx for taking the time for giving all your insights.

As for Morozova she became a pretty savvy coach in her time as well as Fed Cup captain. I remember former Aus Fed Cup coach Judy Dalton saying that her and Olga nearlly came to blows over Fed Cup line ups. Olga used to love foxxing aound with her line ups, when the expected thing to do is to play your highest ranked player against the oppositions highest ranked player!

Morozova had influence with the likes of Neiland, Meskhi and Zeverva, but the relationship with Natasha soured when the USSR Federation disbanded and Zvereva publically annouced that Morozova was never her coach. Conincidently Zvereva said this, during the time when Seles said that Bolleteri was never her coach!

The media found Olga annoying too. She used act as translator for her players and often used to change what they were saying, instead of keeping to literal ranslation!

One personality that Chris Evert never liked was John Newcombe. Apparently during her Tracey Austin bad patch John said that Chris should retire. After her 80 US Open victory she gave John the one finger salute!
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Old Feb 26th, 2004, 11:40 AM   #187
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THAT's why I like Chrissie! That cutesy image conceals a woman with balls (or ovaries, I guess, but it just doesn't "ring").
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Old Mar 3rd, 2004, 09:53 PM   #188
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Does anyone remember the match Chris played against Lesley Hunt at Wimbledon in 1974? I found a report somewhere on the web the other day that mentioned that at one point during this match Chris kept saying "I can't see, I can't see" because it was so dark (I know the match was stopped eventually because of bad light and resumed the next day). I found that very un-Evert like, as you didn't often hear her speak on court! I never saw this match myself. At the 1976 Wimbledon, they met again and played on Centre Court, but Chris demolished Lesley Hunt in straight sets.
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Old Mar 4th, 2004, 07:41 AM   #189
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I watched both matches.Briefly the 1976 was a 6-1 6-0 rout on a sunny afternoon.Lesley had no chance coping with Chris's pace of shots and Chris had such a determined air about her to avoid a long confrontation that had occured two years earlier on the same court.The 1974 second round match started around 5.30pm on a rain delayed day(well it is Wimbledon).Lesley from what i remembered( i was 10 at the time) served and volleyed but the conditions were skiddy on court and Chris avoided chasing some balls she may have retrieved otherwise,sensibly avoiding injury.It was also cloudy,dark and i think windy so her renowned(Chris's that is)groundstrokes lacked consistency and she appeared pre-occupied with the conditions as the match wore on.Chris actually served for the match at either 5-2 or 5-3 final set but was broken and as it progressed to 9 all she did question the validity of the continuing scenario as it was dark by the time they came off court(Forgotten the words voiced).
Another close match in Wimbledon 1974 was a 3rd round thriller played on Court 1 between Evonne Goolagong and fellow Aussie Kerry Harris.It went 6-4 final set to Evonne but there were many opportunities for Kerry H to have won in straight sets.
Does anyone know what happened to both Lesley and Kerry??
P.s my first thread!!
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Old Mar 4th, 2004, 07:58 AM   #190
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Perhaps the closest GS 2nd rounder Chris ever played!

Can't help you with your question, but just wanted to say "welcome to the board"
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Old Mar 4th, 2004, 11:44 AM   #191
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Thanks for that! I'm not sure I ever expected to be speaking about 70s tennis in 2004!
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Old Mar 5th, 2004, 02:28 AM   #192
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Last I heard both Lesley Hunt and Kerry Harris were living in Western Australia. I can remember a story sometime ago about Kerry Harris living in Geraldton (north of Perth if that helps). I think she may have married a farmer and been there for a while.

Lesley Hunt was living in Perth - and had some coaching position there a few years back. She originally married an American guy when she was still playing - and I think there was a subsequent marriage to an Australian guy when she returned to live in Australia. She was a pretty gifted player - who probably didn't reach achieve her full potential - amazingly athletic, but maybe she didn't really have the strikes of some of the best in her era. She always seemed to think she had a pretty good shot against Chris (probably because she got so close in the Wimbledon match, but I'm not sure whether she ever beat her). Lesley also had an amazing early record against Goolagong in their junior days. It was something like 6-1 in favour of Hunt at one stage - but Evonne got better and better in the professional ranks, and Lesley didn't!!
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Old Mar 5th, 2004, 05:20 AM   #193
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Lesley also had an amazing early record against Goolagong in their junior days. It was something like 6-1 in favour of Hunt at one stage - but Evonne got better and better in the professional ranks, and Lesley didn't!!
Yes they were junior rivals. Evonne talks about Hunt often in her early pages of her book Home. Unfortunately the info around the Oz traps about the likes of Gourlay, Hunt, Harris isn't great. Basically at that time if you weren't a huge contender ala Court, Goolagong then you weren't worth writing about.... and they are then forgotten in times like these.
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Old Mar 9th, 2004, 02:15 PM   #194
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My pleasure Double fault How did you come to be an Evert fan?
I detested her at first(Virginia Wade was my pet)-but grew to appreciate her class. By 1983 I was cheering her on all the way!
When I get money I want to get all those tapes of old matches. A few that stick out are the US Open semi of 1981 and of course the French of 1985.

I remember the first time I heard about Chris was in 73 and I was really a small kid but my parents were tennis fans and watching the Wimbledon 73 SF. The King-Goolagong SF was on, I didn' t really understand the rules but I liked BJK because she had glasses ( ) and I was happy she won; so I remember asking "has she won the tournament?" and I was told "no, she still has to play Chris Evert in the finals" and I ask "Chris who?". Anyway, I was told that this famous Chris Evert was quite young and cutie, as cold as ice, with a double-handed backhand (that was quite rare at the time) and that she was Connors' Fiancée. Very attractive description, so I watched the finals and indeed Chris was my first childhood crush! In addition, I remember one of my parents' friends saying something like 'I hope King wins because Evert is such a cold bitch', which added more to the attraction!! Glamorous and bitchy, she definitely deserved a lot of attention.

When I was older and started playing tennis myself, I started following her results as closely as I could and try to watch her on any occasions ... this was probably between 76 and 89 until she retired. I saw her play twice live in the French and once in an exhib match.
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Old Mar 9th, 2004, 02:30 PM   #195
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She did get very thin, didn't she Mark? In 1981 I thought she was border-line anorexic. Streisand-LOL

She started losing weight after she married John Lloyd if you compare the Chris 1978 and Chris 1979, it seems that you're facing two different players. I liked the ponytailed 81-82 version together with the Ellesse outfit (Really suited her like a glove), but yeah the 83 looks was the best! Pity it wasn't a great year for her
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