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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 08:25 PM   #166
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Alfajeffster; great Virginia quote on Chrissie's game - as I've previously stated, Wade's analytical powers are really strong as evidenced in her great past work as a tv commentator.

Ok Daze, did you dig up who Evert's other '74 loss was too? Can't seem to recall it off the top of my head...

Mark37; although I can't speak for Reid, Morozova had a signature year in '74, peaking of course at Wimbledon where she defeated King, and later Wade in a momentous comeback in the semis. Olga's leap and squeal of pure joy after winning match point against Virginia is truly a pleasure to behold
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 08:32 PM   #167
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Thanks santorofan! I have seen footage of that leap. I guess I was just a bit surprised about her record against Evonne since Morozova never really did anything after 1975, which was probably due to the evil Commies control.

I figured since Evonne had such big wins in 74 that she was a little more consistent. Losing to Reid three times in one year is waaay too much!
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 08:42 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorofan
Alfajeffster; great Virginia quote on Chrissie's game - as I've previously stated, Wade's analytical powers are really strong as evidenced in her great past work as a tv commentator.

Ok Daze, did you dig up who Evert's other '74 loss was too? Can't seem to recall it off the top of my head...

Mark37; although I can't speak for Reid, Morozova had a signature year in '74, peaking of course at Wimbledon where she defeated King, and later Wade in a momentous comeback in the semis. Olga's leap and squeal of pure joy after winning match point against Virginia is truly a pleasure to behold
In case you haven't noticed, I've been reading the Wade book "Courting Triumph"- and in it she has a good deal of nice things to say about Olga Morozova, and in fact they became great friends (and still are), and traveled together to the then USSR, and Virginia had Olga stay at the family home in Britain several times. Nice to see two great players bonding in the face of all that competitive fire!
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 09:12 PM   #169
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Evert's 7 losses in 74:

Lost to Goolagong 76 46 60 in the Australian Open final 2R def. Katerleen Szeman 6-0, 6-0; 3R def. Janet Fullis 6-1, 6-1; QF def. Janet Newberry 6-2, 6-4; SF def. Julie Heldman 6-2, 6-3,


AT US Open beat 1R def. Gail Chanfreau 6-1, 6-1; 2R def. Helen Gourlay 6-1, 6-1; 3R def. Patti Hogan 6-2, 6-2; QF def. Lesley Hunt 7-6, 6-3, lost 60 67 63 in the semi final to Goolagong.

Goolagong also beat her (63 64) in the finals of the Virginia Slims Championships in Los Angeles (1R def. Françoise Durr 6-1, 6-1, QF def. Rosemary Casals 6-2, 6-7, 6-2; SF def. Virginia Wade 6-4, 6-2.

At San Francisco 1R def. Martina Navratilova 6-7, 6-3, 6-1; 2R def. Valerie Ziegenfuss 6-0, 6-3; QF def. Laurie Fleming 6-0, 6-4; SF def. Kerry Melville 7-6, 6-2; F lost to Billie Jean King 7-6, 6-2.

In Chicago she def. Pam Teeguarden 6-3, 6-4 1round , 2R, def. Karen Krantzcke 6-2, 6-0, QF, def. Betty Stove 6-4, 6-1, lost semifinal to Rosemary Casals 6-2, 6-3.

At the the US Indoors in New York (1R def. Sharon Walsh 6-4, 6-2; 2R def. Mary Ann Eisel-Beattie 2-6, 6-2, 6-1; QF def. Marcelyn Louie 6-2, 6-0; SF def. Betty Stove 6-2, 3-6, 6-1; F lost to Billie Jean King 6-3, 3-6, 6-2

In Denver (def. Kristie Pigeon 6-0, 6-0, 2R def. Katie Harter 6-2, 6-1, QF def. Valerie Ziegenfuss 6-1, 6-2; SF def. Francoise Durr 6-4, 6-3; F lost to Evonne Goolagong 7-5, 3-6, 6-4

Losses: Goolagong 4, King 2, Casals 1.
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 11:31 PM   #170
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Andy; thanks tons - if Chris had to lose to someone else I'm glad it was Rosie!

Alfajeffster/Mark37 - I have to read that book! Morozova is one of my favs, yet I know relatively little about her. I did see her recently on the Tennis Channel for a brief minute - said she was presently doing tennis commentary in Russia. I wasn't aware that she had returned to Moscow, as the last I'd heard she was involved in coaching junior players in England (Perhaps Virginia had an indirect role in her doing so?) But back to Olga's career and in relation to this thread, even as an Evert fan, I wish Chris hadn't had Olga's number to the degree she did; most of their matches were fairly lopsided affairs, esp their two GS finals. But it's nice to see the pair won some doubles titles together at least
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Old Feb 21st, 2004, 04:22 AM   #171
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Poor Olga was injured rather badly after Wimbledon in 1974. She was all set to be seeded as high as #4 at the US Open when she had to pull out. I was steamed as hell when someone in GM mentioned MYSKINA as the "greatest ever Russian"

One of the more intriguing chapters in BJ's bio was on Chris. It does a remarkable job of capturing the complex emotions both brought out in each other. Billie Jean wrote coming from a Catholic household she realted to Evert in a lot of ways. At the same time King felt that she had to beat Evert to save the Slims in their 1971 US Open semi. And Chris sabotaged King's project to hold a separate US Open apart from the men in 1980.
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Old Feb 21st, 2004, 06:06 AM   #172
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Ah, but why harp on the 7 loses of 1974, what about 7 of the wins of 1974:

* Virginia Slims of Palm Springs (Mission Viejo, CA): F def. Billie Jean King 6-3, 6-1

<sum> S & H Green Stamps Classic (Fort Lauderdale, FL): SF def. Rosemary Casals 6-0, 6-1

* Virginia Slims of Sarasota (Sarasota, FL): F def. Evonne Goolagong 6-4, 6-0

<sum> Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): SF def. Rosemary Casals 6-1, 6-0;

* Italian Open Championships (Rome, Italy): F def. Martina Navratilova 6-3, 6-3

* World Invitational (Hilton Head, SC): SF def. Evonne Goolagong 6-2, 6-1; F def. Virginia Wade 6-1, 6-3

Not to mention the 6-1 6-2 French final win over Mozorova and the 6-0 6-4 Wimbledon final win over Mozorova. Those are nice too.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:08 AM   #173
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Keeping up with Martina

On one of these recent "Chris threads," a few of us had discussed the fact about how Chris finally abandoned her wooden rackets for graphite ones in 1984, evidently in part, as a way to re-kindle her rivalry with Martina. In a June 1986 article on Evert from Life magazine, it also stated:

"(I)n an effort to match Martina's muscle, Chris began a rigorous weight-lifting and aerobics regimen two years ago. Nine multivitamin and two fish-oil tablets are part of her daily diet. She has also worked at changing her game; she has added spin to her second serve and has been working up her nerve to charge the net against Martina in matches against lesser opponents."

Later in the article, Chris also stated, "I know I can beat her at this year's French Open or at Wimbledon."

Well of course she was right

I recall first noticing the change in Chris physically at the '84 US Open final. While waiting for Martina to serve, the camera panned on her from the back, and you couldn't not notice Chris's new and improved, muscularly-defined calves. I was like, "Wow I never noticed THAT before!" But in the weight-lifting department, she certainly had a tough act to follow....
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Old Feb 23rd, 2004, 09:41 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11
Ah, but why harp on the 7 loses of 1974, what about 7 of the wins of 1974:

* Virginia Slims of Palm Springs (Mission Viejo, CA): F def. Billie Jean King 6-3, 6-1

<sum> S & H Green Stamps Classic (Fort Lauderdale, FL): SF def. Rosemary Casals 6-0, 6-1

* Virginia Slims of Sarasota (Sarasota, FL): F def. Evonne Goolagong 6-4, 6-0

<sum> Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): SF def. Rosemary Casals 6-1, 6-0;

* Italian Open Championships (Rome, Italy): F def. Martina Navratilova 6-3, 6-3

* World Invitational (Hilton Head, SC): SF def. Evonne Goolagong 6-2, 6-1; F def. Virginia Wade 6-1, 6-3

Not to mention the 6-1 6-2 French final win over Mozorova and the 6-0 6-4 Wimbledon final win over Mozorova. Those are nice too.
I think that 74 and 81 pose two of the biggest ranking dilemmas in modern tennis history. 81 has been discussed at length elsewhere and at least there was a computer then to aid argument. In 74 there was no computer and the experts are split. Tingay went for Evert-King-Goolagong whereas Bud Collins went for King-Goolagong-Evert.

The majors were:
Aussie Goolagong def Evert (King did not play)
French Evert won (King and Goolagong banned)
Wimbledon Evert won (King and Goolagong eliminated in qf)
US: King def Goolagong (Goolagong def Evert in sf)
Virginia Slims Goolagong def Evert (Goolagong def King in sf)

h2h:
Goolagong vs Evert 4-2
King vs Evert 2-1
King vs Goolagong 1-1

Titles:
Evert 16/23 = 69.5%


Indian Wells/Mission Viejo VS
Fort Lauderdale S & H Tennis Classic
Dallas VS
Sarasota VS
St Petersburg Masters Barnett Bank VS
Family Circle Cup
Italian Open
FRENCH OPEN
Eastbourne International J. Player Champs
WIMBLEDON
USCC Championships
Canadian Open
Newport VS GC Champs
Houston VS
4 Woman World Invitational Hilton Hd
Japan Gunze Classic

8 on clay, 3 indoors, 3 on grass, 1 on hard courts + Houston?

Goolagong: 7/18 = 38.9%

AUSTRALIAN OPEN
Auckland B&H Open
NZ Hardcourt Champs (B&H)
Denver Majestic Tournament
Series Championships VS
Queensland Open
NSW Open

5 on grass, 1 indoors and Denver (on hardcourts?)

King: 6/14 = 42.8%
Oakland San Francisco VS
Washington VS
Detroit VS
Akron Indoors VS
US Indoors
US OPEN

1 on grass and 5 indoors

nb: Goolagong and King played WTT and therefore did not compete on the spring and summer tournament circuits.

Tournament Losses:
Evert 7: Goolagong 4, King 2, Casals 1
King 8: Evert 1 Goolagong 1 Wade 3 Morozova 2 Heldman 1
Goolagong 11: Evert 2 King 1 Krantzcke 1 Reid 3 Gourlay 1 Overton 1 Morozova 2

So, re the majors, it's
Goolagong 2/4 or 50%
Evert 2/5 or 40%
King 1/3 or 33.3%

re h2h it's
Goolagong 5/8 or 62.5%
King 3/5 or 60%
Evert 3/8 or 37.5%

re Tournament wins it's
Evert 69.5%
King 42.8%
Goolagong 38.9%

re "bad" losses it's
Evert 1
King 6
Goolagong 8

All that and no computer....!
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Old Feb 23rd, 2004, 08:00 PM   #175
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you're pretty damn good there, slick andy. and its a confusing bit on info...but collins always ranks evert lower...and she hates him and vice-versa (overstatement...she ignored him, he hastled her...bad deal)...goolagong's many bad losses stand out if you're going to be the #1 player in the world for the year. and both king & goolagong losing at wimbledon--which is THEIR tournament, not Chris'--is another key factor. If Chris can win their tournament (because in 74, chris' grass game was not great) and evonne's winning record against chris might've been a bit different had goolagong spent more time in the clay court season (unless she was just eliminated early).

king...not worth pretending she was #1. she wasn't.

but you've gotta prefer the 81 season to the 74, anyway. aside from play, you've got some MAJOR charisma there...chrissie, martina (pre-glasses, was not an unattractive lady), tracy, andrea, and hana (even hana was oddly attractive in 81...she didnt exactly change physically over the years, but somehow her pale-white flesh was albino in severity and got worse over time.) On the boys side, we have jimmy lookin' PRETTY good, the ever-hunkable bjorn borg, vilas was still around...john lloyd still had hair and was HOT up in that spectator booth! hahaha...

If we're going to pretend looks dont count in tennis...then we are in denial. Glamour is glamour, and 1981 was diamond-studded.

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Old Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:13 PM   #176
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Daze11: I'm interested in hearing more fully your impressions concerning Chris and Bud Collins' relationship. I knew he recognized Martina as the greatest female player, but I've not heard or read anything negative concerning Evert that he wrote. In particular, I recall (and I may still have it somewhere) an article he wrote on Chris in the Boston Globe in 1984 entitled (I think) "She's Losing but She's Not a Loser." This concerned the losing streak she was having with Martina at the time and was written not too long after their Madison Square Garden best-of-five-set struggle. The editorial cartoon accompianing the article had a smiling Martina pouring water over Chris's head from behind her
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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 04:03 AM   #177
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I cant even put it in print, as in 'black & white', but i can say that bud ... chris did not feel totally supported by bud a LOT and thought he was quick to be critical of her game but not quick to recognize more subtle strengths, and there was a stylistic clash as well. Chris' interest in 'class' and seeing herself as perhaps a bit of a fashionista...looking good on court=feeling good to play well (although over-stated by many, which chris started to revolt against as well) ...was not taken as seriously by bud and chris felt a little like he was ...poking fun, or not fully appreciative that she was somewhat stylistically sophisticated, plus i dont think, in return, she loved his ridiculous pants or criticisms on style from a man WEARING his ridiculous pants. I admit she may have missed some of the fun he represented, but that being said, she missed it. I think he also was into hot chicks on the tour and she was a little 'cool' toward him, didnt like being oogled by some older guy, and wasn't of the sensibility to appreciate his oogling of sabatini and a lot of other young attractive players later in the 80s. She wanted the focus on the tennis and not on the hottness of this young attractive girl or that young attractive girl. Thought that was disrespectful. And bud was a little put off that she was so put off, and probaly felt insulted at some level, like she was saying "oh, pleeease!" which she was.

With all that said, they both had a mutual interest in sort-of being friendly with each other, as he was a top announcer determining the way the public would sometimes perceive her; she was a top player, and i dont think bud was unfond of her, but wanted to stay on relative good terms despite some tepid differences. it just appears to be a struggle for both of their personalities to deal with the other. The article you are referencing sounds like a classic reconcilitory attempt of collins to keep evert thinking he was promoting her in good graces...but --in classic bud/chris not getting each other form-- then i doubt very highly whether she thought the drawing about being splashed with water by martina was funny. Like all great champions, she has an ego, and had a bigger one back then...and there's an insult in that cartoon if you're one to get your ego bruised instead of laughing it off. Martina probably thought that cartoon was very funny, for instance. Chris would not, and would be thinking, "YOU play her, Bud collins, and try to do better."

Add to that, she often didnt think his line of questioning was relevant, and were more about collin's reaffirming his own broadcast style than the tennis. After the french 83, she said, "Who asked me that stupid question the other day? Oh, that was you, Bud." and she was joking but they did little digs a lot throughout chris' playing career. In '86, also at the french, she double faulted on set point to carling bassett and bud asked if she'd ever done that in her CAREER. he was kind-of praising her, she interpreted it as his saying she wasn't playing like she used to, and it just went on and on...two personalities that didnt GET each others humor, and when one wuld finally joke with the other, the other then felt put on the spot or challenged in some way.

ALL OF THAT SAID, Bud did a very touching piece on Chris & Andy Mill (one of the best) from the 1988 wimbledon when chris & andy were getting married. That was one of those very nice authentic reconcilatory moments, albeit it a pretty natural instinct for EVERYONE back when chris was retiring...every one and their mother was putting any grudge aside...The Great Queen was really and truly leaving this sport. No more Miss. Consistency in every semi or final; No more rock of gebraulter in every tournament to purse her lips and narrow her eyes and move mountains. But when chris took over nbc commentating and nudged him out of the booth and into 'reporting from the stands'...i think it just added to what had always, in reality...been...i wont say a 'bad scene' but a perpetual misunderstanding of oil and water.
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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 04:49 AM   #178
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Daze11, thanks again for your insights; I wasn't aware that it was Chris's presense that actually pushed Bud out of his NBC broadcast position, but it certainly sounds logical from that vatage point. And while there were evidently some mixed relationships for Chris with certain people, others (broadcasters) from that period such as Tony Trabert, really loved her and the fondness and respect they shared seemed both genuine and mutual. On the Chris's "Greatest Sports Lengends" tv segment, the two almost appeared as father and daughter throughout the half-hour piece - at least that was my impression
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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 05:15 AM   #179
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Trabert was from a prior generation of tennis royalty and she admired him as a fellow tennis luminary and hall-of-famer...case in point, she didnt think bud was fellow-tennis-legend material. But Mary Carillo was no tennis star (though good results in mixed doubles with john mac!!), and chris liked her a lot. wade a lot. of course, steve flink, she adored. But she just thought steve knew his shit and could work the statistical analysis like no other. He also understood her game and her importance, which didnt hurt. She also didnt get along with Vic Braden who is, like Bud Collins, a kind of goofy self-affacing tennis analyst. Don't mean to say she DISMISSED them as unknowledgeable, but clearly had personality incompatibility issues with those 2 guys in particular. I watched chrissie dump a cup of beer over Braden, so...something in him brought out a part of her that was very uncharacteristic. Didn't like those dudes...ok, that's too strong a statement. But...Could've done without those dudes.

I dont think chris was necessarily right to have this attitude...both guys certainly pretty well liked her, except for her rejection of them...but i can understand being uncomfortable with having someone else seem to have the ability to position your image to the public, and not fully trusting their abillity to do it accurately.

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Old Feb 24th, 2004, 07:21 AM   #180
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Bud irritates me a lot in his take on those early 70s years and his ridiculous (imo) rankings for that period, which somehow the wta tour consider "official". The guy is extremely pro-BJK and much less appreciative of Chrissie and Evonne. In 71, he ranked King ahead of Evonne, in 72, his top 6 reads: King - Court -Richey - Evert - Wade - Goolagong (at #6!!!!) and there are the 74 rankings quoted above. It is very clear that he was doing everything to promote the fledgling wta tour.

Excellent point re the surfaces, Daze11. I'll try and do a breakdown so we get a more balanced view. It is certain, though, that King and Goolagong (along with Connors, amongst others) were banned from competing in Rome and Paris because of their WTT contracts. Evonne and Connors wanted to play, I know, and threatened to sue at one point. What became of that I don't remember.
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