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Old Feb 19th, 2004, 04:44 PM   #151
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forgot to say it...Santorofan RULEZ with that info!!! Thanks, it's kind-of ESSENTIAL reading for the Chrisophile!

She never fully admitted some of that stuff before, to be gracious. But i dont see why people think she's being bitchy to say she could've won a few matches she didn't; Martina cries and whines about every call in every match...in fact I have not ONE match (and i have over a hundred) where this is not the case with Martina grandstanding and arguing calls that aren't even an issue. And no one calls her ungracious.

The two things i dont agree with her on is the 80 wimbledon final. I do think she was flat. But Evonne played great, deserved to win, she beat Tracy Austin in the semi, and could've had a 'let down' too. i dont think chris played that well in the semi where she beat martina. They were both flat. Evonne would've beaten her on the day she beat Martina too. 1980 wimbledon is not a chris highlight.

And she shouldn't think she should've beaten wade..she usually did beat wade, but wade had some victories, especially in team tennis, over chris, and the wimbledon match came out of the confidence wade had gained playing in america for WTT.
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Old Feb 19th, 2004, 07:57 PM   #152
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Hi Daze11!
I think you misread my post (GC = Grass court, not grand slam) The 75 US Open was on har-tru, not grass (and Evonne was up 75 44 in that match, btw). She also beat Chris indoors twice indoors in 76, which put an end to Chris' 8-match win streak against her. The margin between them was small at the point they met at Wimbledon.

I think people object to those thoughtless comments because they came long after the matches and make her sound a bit ungracious and a bad loser, which I don't believe she really was. During matches anything can happen and Chris' manners on-court have always been exemplary (unlike Martina's).
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 05:58 AM   #153
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well, that makes sense. i think i would be correct in saying goolagong learned to play the sport on a grass court and her instincts for grass are natural and superb. chris grew up on clay, and played a lot on the 2 red clay courts they had at holiday park, so real clay. i dont know how she faired as well as she did on grass, frankly...no bounce, the ball never comes up to her power-zone, and the volleyer's ball dies so its much harder to reach to even attempt a passing shot. and chris' net play wasn't terrible, even though it wasnt natural, but i coudn't say --from her career-long instincts-- that she EVER LIKED being up there, no matter what she may have told herself to keep confident about trying to.

With that said, LITTLE KNOWN FACT: aside from the wimbledon head-to-heads, which martina dominated, Chrissie was EVEN on grass in her non-Wimbledon head-to-heads with Navratilova. Meanwhile, Martina beat chris only 3 times in 20 years on clay-surface court.

The lion's share of chris' losses to MN came indoors, which was actually chris' worst surface by far. If she had worn glasses indoors, i shudder to think what her record would be, but the lady famous for saying "No point is worth falling down for" would not have adorned specks under any circumstances. I doubt she wears them even when alone in the house.

Anyway, how did she do so well on grass? Sheer willpower.

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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 07:10 AM   #154
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Part of the reason I posted those particular S.I. quotes from Chris was because they seemed rather uncharacteristic of her in general, as she was usually fairly modest about her own capabilities and quite complimentary of her opponents normally, so I thought it was interesting. BTW, I do think it's possible that she had a letdown after the thrill of beating Martina in the '80 Wimbledon semis - celebrated a bit too much and was "in a fog" the next day - these things happen. At that point in history I simply think that she considered Martina a stronger opponent of the two, so perhaps, underestimated Evonne a bit - certainly it's possible. Concerning her comment on Virginia, however, I think it might have been a bit more tactful had she stated, I was the better player, not "a much better player" which sounds like she's gloating a bit! Otherwise, IMO Chrissie's statements seem pretty accurate.

Mark37 - you're right about the order of the Aussie Open in '76 - Chrissie would've had to play the AO early that year to've had a chance for the slam. During the 70s and 80s they kept switching the order of the tournament, no wonder Chris's recollection got that mixed up about that. As an aside, what's especially odd with that tournament is that the AO was actually played twice in '77; Kerry Reid won the January AO and Evonne won it in December!

On a related note, just something I wanted to ponder on: the actual WTA rankings are purported to have begun on November 3, 1975. When listing which players have held the No. 1 position for the most weeks, Steffi is in the lead for 378 wks, followed by Martina at 331 wks and Chris at 262 weeks. However, is somewhat misleading?? Weren't there additional weeks earlier in '75 (possibly '74?) where Chris was also (unofficially?) the No. 1 ranked player? What would Chris's approx total wks have been then?

One final note (and this could be yet a whole other thread). I don't quite get the rankings for 1974. Chris is officially listed as No. 3 in the world?!? Her win-loss record was 103-7, she won 16 singles titles including two majors and got to the finals and semis of the other two slams. She also reached the VS final (losing to Goolagong). The one possible blemish on her record in '74 that I can see might be that she was 1-2 vs King and 2-4 vs Goolagong that year (don't know who her one other loss was to). Further, didn't she also have a 56 match winning streak that same year? Doesn't sound like any No. 3 I've ever heard of! Any thoughts on this particular ranking situation?? Comparitively, was King's record in '74 that bloody good???

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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 09:18 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santorofan
Part of the reason I posted those particular S.I. quotes from Chris was because they seemed rather uncharacteristic of her in general, as she was usually fairly modest about her own capabilities and quite complimentary of her opponents normally, so I thought it was interesting. BTW, I do think it's possible that she had a letdown after the thrill of beating Martina in the '80 Wimbledon semis - celebrated a bit too much and was "in a fog" the next day - these things happen. At that point in history I simply think that she considered Martina a stronger opponent of the two, so perhaps, underestimated Evonne a bit - certainly it's possible. Concerning her comment on Virginia, however, I think it might have been a bit more tactful had she stated, I was the better player, not "a much better player" which sounds like she's gloating a bit! Otherwise, IMO Chrissie's statements seem pretty accurate.

Mark37 - you're right about the order of the Aussie Open in '76 - Chrissie would've had to play the AO early that year to've had a chance for the slam. During the 70s and 80s they kept switching the order of the tournament, no wonder Chris's recollection got that mixed up about that. As an aside, what's especially odd with that tournament is that the AO was actually played twice in '77; Kerry Reid won the January AO and Evonne won it in December!

On a related note, just something I wanted to ponder on: the actual WTA rankings are purported to have begun on November 3, 1975. When listing which players have held the No. 1 position for the most weeks, Steffi is in the lead for 378 wks, followed by Martina at 331 wks and Chris at 262 weeks. However, is somewhat misleading?? Weren't there additional weeks earlier in '75 (possibly '74?) where Chris was also (unofficially?) the No. 1 ranked player? What would Chris's approx total wks have been then?

One final note (and this could be yet a whole other thread). I don't quite get the rankings for 1974. Chris is officially listed as No. 3 in the world?!? Her win-loss record was 103-7, she won 16 singles titles including two majors and got to the finals and semis of the other two slams. She also reached the VS final (losing to Goolagong). The one possible blemish on her record in '74 that I can see might be that she was 1-2 vs King and 2-4 vs Goolagong that year (don't know who her one other loss was to). Further, didn't she also have a 56 match winning streak that same year? Doesn't sound like any No. 3 I've ever heard of! Any thoughts on this particular ranking situation?? Comparitively, was King's record in '74 that bloody good???
Wow, this post is worth several threads onits own! I agree with you regarding Chrissie's estimation of Martina and Evonne in 1980, though Evonne had taken her to 63 67 75 at Chichester just before, so she ought to have expected a tough match and she was still trailing Evonne 3-4 in their H2H on grass.

As for the rankings, given that Chrissie was undisputed #1 for most of 75 (BJ King, with the US of 74 and Wimbledon 75 was the main rival but she then retired) and a contender in late 74, I'm sure she could add at least 40 weeks to that total.
I've never understood the 1974 rankings either Santorofan. Most "experts" rank Chrissie #1 but the wta list BJK as #1. I don't know if the ranking is from an expert too or based on some computer system (they must have computerised results at least in late 74 in order to begin the rankings in 75)

To the best of my knowledge, King's and Goolagong's records are as follows:
King:
won VS San Francisco: d Richey 61 63, Evert 76 62
r/u VS Mission Viejo: d Richey 36 63 75, lost Evert 63 61
Won VS Washington: d Casals 57 62 60, Melville 60 62
Won VS Detroit: d Durr 63 36 60, Casals 61 61
sf VS Chicago: lost Wade 63 76
Won VS Akron: d Richey 64 62
Won New York Indoor: d Casals 63 57 63, Evert 63 36 62
r/u VS Philadelphia: d Wade 75 64, lost Morozova 76 61
wtt - banned from French Open
Lost qf Wimbledon to Morozova 75 62
won US Open: d Casals 61 76, Heldman 26 63 61, Goolagong, 36 63 75 (came back from 0-3 in 3s).
sf Orlando: lost Heldman 26 61 64
sf Hilton Head Classic: lost Wade 63 16 64
sf Phoenix: lost Wade 75 61
sf VS Champs Boca Raton: Lost Goolagong 62 46 63

Losses: 8
Evert 1 - Wade 3 - Goolagong 1 - Morozova 2 - Heldman1
Defeated Evert 2 Goolagong 1


Goolagong's record for the same year:

Won Australian Open: d Kerry Melville, Karen Krantzcke, Evert 76 46 60
r/u NSW: Lost to Krantzcke
Won the B&H New Zealand: d Kiyomura 62 61
Won New Zealand HC: d Barker 62 63, Michel 64 64.
r/u Sarasota: d Gourlay 63 62, Reid 63 61, lost 64 60 to Evert
sf St Petersburg: d Stove 75 64 lost Reid 57 46
lost to Gourlay 63 36 76 in 2r Philadelphia
sf FC Cup d Morozova 63 62, lost Reid 36 63 46.
World Team Tennis - barred from playing in the French Open
qf Wimbledon: lost Melville 97 16 62
r/u US Open: beat Melville, Evert 60 67 63, lost King 36 63 75
won Denver: d Teeguarden 75 63, Richey 16 62 75, Evert 75 36 64 but Withdrew from her sf against Evert at Houston on hearing of the death of her father.
Lost 1r match to Overton at Phoenix
Won VS Champs: d Hunt 76 75, King 62 46 63 and Evert 63 64
sf Hilton Head: lost Evert 62 61
r/u Adelaide d Michel 63 67 75, Fromholtz 46 76 60, lost Morozova 67 62 26 sf Perth d Navratilova 62 62 lost sf 26 63 68 to Morozova
Won Brisbane d Eastburn 61 62, Gurdal 46 62 61, Sieler 61 62
Won NSW Open: beating Harris 63 60 Morozova 64 75 and Court 63 75.

1974 (Cleveland Ohio 13-15 Sept) Heldman d Goolagong 63 16 63 in Bonne Bell Cup

wins: Evert4 King1 Court1
Losses: 12. Evert 2, Melville 3, King 1, Overton 1, Gourlay 1, Morozova 2, Heldman 1, Krantzcke 1.

It's a tough call. King lost only one more match than Evert and had a h2h lead. Goolagong lost more but won Aus (beating Evert) and the Slims Championships (beating both Evert and King). Both Goolagong and King were banned from Paris (and Rome, I think), so Chrissie's opposition there was less impressive. nonetheless, she won two slam events and lost the fewest number of matches.
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 02:44 PM   #156
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Wow, 1974 was a lot closer than I thought. I didn't know Billie Jean was so consistent that year and had Evonne just taken those last few games of their US final she would have been number 1. What was up with Evonne losing so much to Kerry Reid and Olga Morozova? Wierd.
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 02:52 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Andy T
Wow, this post is worth several threads onits own! I agree with you regarding Chrissie's estimation of Martina and Evonne in 1980, though Evonne had taken her to 63 67 75 at Chichester just before, so she ought to have expected a tough match and she was still trailing Evonne 3-4 in their H2H on grass.

As for the rankings, given that Chrissie was undisputed #1 for most of 75 (BJ King, with the US of 74 and Wimbledon 75 was the main rival but she then retired) and a contender in late 74, I'm sure she could add at least 40 weeks to that total.
I've never understood the 1974 rankings either Santorofan. Most "experts" rank Chrissie #1 but the wta list BJK as #1. I don't know if the ranking is from an expert too or based on some computer system (they must have computerised results at least in late 74 in order to begin the rankings in 75)

To the best of my knowledge, King's and Goolagong's records are as follows:
King:
won VS San Francisco: d Richey 61 63, Evert 76 62
r/u VS Mission Viejo: d Richey 36 63 75, lost Evert 63 61
Won VS Washington: d Casals 57 62 60, Melville 60 62
Won VS Detroit: d Durr 63 36 60, Casals 61 61
sf VS Chicago: lost Wade 63 76
Won VS Akron: d Richey 64 62
Won New York Indoor: d Casals 63 57 63, Evert 63 36 62
r/u VS Philadelphia: d Wade 75 64, lost Morozova 76 61
wtt - banned from French Open
Lost qf Wimbledon to Morozova 75 62
won US Open: d Casals 61 76, Heldman 26 63 61, Goolagong, 36 63 75 (came back from 0-3 in 3s).
sf Orlando: lost Heldman 26 61 64
sf Hilton Head Classic: lost Wade 63 16 64
sf Phoenix: lost Wade 75 61
sf VS Champs Boca Raton: Lost Goolagong 62 46 63

Losses: 8
Evert 1 - Wade 3 - Goolagong 1 - Morozova 2 - Heldman1
Defeated Evert 2 Goolagong 1


Goolagong's record for the same year:

Won Australian Open: d Kerry Melville, Karen Krantzcke, Evert 76 46 60
r/u NSW: Lost to Krantzcke
Won the B&H New Zealand: d Kiyomura 62 61
Won New Zealand HC: d Barker 62 63, Michel 64 64.
r/u Sarasota: d Gourlay 63 62, Reid 63 61, lost 64 60 to Evert
sf St Petersburg: d Stove 75 64 lost Reid 57 46
lost to Gourlay 63 36 76 in 2r Philadelphia
sf FC Cup d Morozova 63 62, lost Reid 36 63 46.
World Team Tennis - barred from playing in the French Open
qf Wimbledon: lost Melville 97 16 62
r/u US Open: beat Melville, Evert 60 67 63, lost King 36 63 75
won Denver: d Teeguarden 75 63, Richey 16 62 75, Evert 75 36 64 but Withdrew from her sf against Evert at Houston on hearing of the death of her father.
Lost 1r match to Overton at Phoenix
Won VS Champs: d Hunt 76 75, King 62 46 63 and Evert 63 64
sf Hilton Head: lost Evert 62 61
r/u Adelaide d Michel 63 67 75, Fromholtz 46 76 60, lost Morozova 67 62 26 sf Perth d Navratilova 62 62 lost sf 26 63 68 to Morozova
Won Brisbane d Eastburn 61 62, Gurdal 46 62 61, Sieler 61 62
Won NSW Open: beating Harris 63 60 Morozova 64 75 and Court 63 75.

1974 (Cleveland Ohio 13-15 Sept) Heldman d Goolagong 63 16 63 in Bonne Bell Cup

wins: Evert4 King1 Court1
Losses: 12. Evert 2, Melville 3, King 1, Overton 1, Gourlay 1, Morozova 2, Heldman 1, Krantzcke 1.

It's a tough call. King lost only one more match than Evert and had a h2h lead. Goolagong lost more but won Aus (beating Evert) and the Slims Championships (beating both Evert and King). Both Goolagong and King were banned from Paris (and Rome, I think), so Chrissie's opposition there was less impressive. nonetheless, she won two slam events and lost the fewest number of matches.

EXCELLENT POST ANDY T, YOU BROKE IT DOWN SO WELL! WHO WAS THE TRUE #1 FOR 1974
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 04:34 PM   #158
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 04:38 PM   #159
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C'mon! 2 Grand Slams, a 103-7 record, and 56-match winning streak that lasted 10 years? The race for #1 has often been very close, but the #1 is the #1, and Chris can't not have been with results like that.

To illustrate, Chris was #1 in 1981 but it was up to the last month of the year, 1982 Martina became #1, but it was decided in the last tournament of the year (Toyota championships final), and 1985 Martina became #1 in the last month but they said if Chris had won that day (at the 85 Aussie), she would be back to #1 on the computer. So close is close, and happens all the time, thank god for competition's sake. But as Billie jean has re-written a lot of tennis history, she must've hand-scrawled those rankings for 1974 in the locker room.

Well done with the VW quote, by the way, Alfa! That was very subtle...

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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 04:46 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11
C'mon! 2 Grand Slams, a 103-7 record, and 56-match winning streak that lasted 10 years? The race for #1 has often been very close, but the #1 is the #1, and Chris can't not have been with results like that.

To illustrate, Chris was #1 in 1981 but it was up to the last month of the year, 1982 Martina became #1, but it was decided in the last tournament of the year (Toyota championships final), and 1985 Martina became #1 in the last month but they said if Chris had won that day (at the 85 Aussie), she would be back to #1 on the computer. So close is close, and happens all the time, thank god for competition's sake. But as Billie jean has re-written a lot of tennis history, she must've hand-scrawled those rankings for 1974 in the locker room.

Well done with the VW quote, by the way, Alfa! That was very subtle...
Have you ever seen Chris and Billie Jean in the same commentary booth for a match? I haven't, and I'm not sure it's ever happened. I know they both have a very high mutual respect for each other, and I always love it when Chris is in the booth and a player hits a great volley off the shoetops (Chris even said this during a Navratilova match once)- "Wow, that was a Billie Jean King volley there!"
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 05:02 PM   #161
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Their relationship has very-publically fluctuated over time. I've heard BJ say with great awe how 'perfect' chris is (aka, "she never misses") as in the 87 houston final she commentated. I've also heard her at an awards ceremony where the most positive thing she could muster about chris was a hesitant, "she was... certainly calculated about everything she did" which i think came across with as many layers as it was intended. And while chris has been more generously supportive of BJK in her comments, she has suggested that --concerning chris' lack of involvement with current players that BJK is quite critical of-- that some people find lives that are fulfilling outside of tennis and find a different kind of winning, whereas some people seem to not be able to find a fulfilling life outside of the one they create for themselves in tennis...and it was directed in part at BJK. I think part of the suggestion may be that BJK's undying dedication to tennis, which so many admire without any question, may be a compensation for not being able to win 'away-from-the-court' ...but its a pretty heavy 'entanglement' at this point, i believe, between them. This tension was definitely going on, but I dont know where its at TODAY.
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 05:04 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11
Their relationship has very-publically fluctuated over time. I've heard BJ say with great awe how 'perfect' chris is (aka, "she never misses") as in the 87 houston final she commentated. I've also heard her at an awards ceremony where the most positive thing she could muster about chris was a hesitant, "she was... certainly calculated about everything she did" which i think came across with as many layers as it was intended. And while chris has been more generously supportive of BJK in her comments, she has suggested that --concerning chris' lack of involvement with current players that BJK is quite critical of-- that some people find lives that are fulfilling outside of tennis and find a different kind of winning, whereas some people seem to not be able to find a fulfilling life outside of the one they create for themselves in tennis...and it was directed in part at BJK. I think part of the suggestion may be that BJK's undying dedication to tennis, which so many admire without any question, may be a compensation for not being able to win 'away-from-the-court' ...but its a pretty heavy 'entanglement' at this point, i believe, between them. This tension was definitely going on, but I dont know where its at TODAY.
Remember how infuriated BJK was with Chris comment in the mid-70s:

"No ball is worth falling down over!"
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 05:13 PM   #163
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yes, and hilariously Martina said of Chris (when she was retiring) that she was proud that Chris had learned that a point WAS worth falling down over. And i thought, "Hmmm. did she?" And recently, Chris said, "No. I'd rather just win the next point." I thought that was hilarious. She keeps her girlie-girl crown fully INTACT!
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 06:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by daze11
yes, and hilariously Martina said of Chris (when she was retiring) that she was proud that Chris had learned that a point WAS worth falling down over. And i thought, "Hmmm. did she?" And recently, Chris said, "No. I'd rather just win the next point." I thought that was hilarious. She keeps her girlie-girl crown fully INTACT!
I've said it before, and it bears repeating; Chris Evert was far and away the nicest and most professional player to all concerned when she visited our town last year for an exhibition. We've had Martina Navratilova the year before (and I won't go into how she was), Virginia Wade, Pam Shriver, Tracy Austin, Carling Bassett, Illana Kloss, Wendy Turnbull, Jeanne Evert, and many other ladies, and Chris made all her appointments, made the rounds and made sure she hit with every single patron of the event (not an easy task with 10 courts to cover in a 3 hour period, I might add), and was cheerful and outgoing the whole time.

Of course, I'm a Virginia Wadeaholic, and cherish my personal experience with her, but Chrissie moved up quite a few notches in my book after her visit here!
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Old Feb 20th, 2004, 07:25 PM   #165
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Yeah, she's quite a bit less frosty than people seem to imagine. But i did remember something about the BJK quote about chris being calculated. Chris did respond afterward to the press, "Well, if thinking before you speak and being aware of how certain actions will be perceived by the public in advance, instead of just reacting, is 'calculated', I don't think that's a bad thing" which was a good retort, but also shows she knew BJK meant it in some critical way. she was basically saying, 'Don't go around blaming me for being an adult.'
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