Chris Evert Thread - Page 108 - TennisForum.com
TennisForum.com   Wagerline.com MensTennisForums.com TennisUniverse.com
TennisForum.com is the premier Women's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!
Reply

Old Apr 19th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #1606
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
i am amazed you can even mention that match; it is simply the most tedious tennis i have ever seen. i try to over look it because i know chris was a great player in '74.... but that wimbledon match is entirely without interest for me. I cant recall a single interesting point. And me saying that for an evert match is something else!!!!
DazeWhy am I not surprised that you would have the opposite view from me??I dont think it was a great match by any means and it really should have been Wade in the final. But I was impressed by the net ability of Evert in that match. She had come on so far from the match that I saw of her playing Eisel at the Open in 71. I dont know that there are any matches of Evert that you could hate, but the way she coped with her nerves and Morozova in that final is actually quite admirable to me. Even if Austin was better from the back of the court!!!!
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old Apr 19th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #1607
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
that final was gorgeous clay court tennis though.... chris was not threatened so she really put on an artful display of arsenal, making it far more interesting for the fans than it may otherwise have been!!!

plus lets face it... she was a babe in '83. ypu can tell she was just beginning to think about doing her nails, at the same moment as martina really dug in to her historical heights. what a clash of desire vs loss of interest at exactly the right time!
DazeHas she ever said that she suffered from a loss of desire in 83? I didnt think so at the time but Jems post has made me reflect on some of the tennis she played. But at the same time she was a clear run away number two. We have had this argument before but I do think she benefited at this stage from the dissapearance of Austin and Jaeger circa Wimbledon and the relatively ineffectual play of Mandlikova???
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 07:09 AM   #1608
country flag DennisFitz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 556
DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
that final was gorgeous clay court tennis though.... chris was not threatened so she really put on an artful display of arsenal, making it far more interesting for the fans than it may otherwise have been!!!

plus lets face it... she was a babe in '83. ypu can tell she was just beginning to think about doing her nails, at the same moment as martina really dug in to her historical heights. what a clash of desire vs loss of interest at exactly the right time!
Daze - curious why you felt Evert was not threatened in the '83 Amelia Island final. I know she was cruising up 6-3,2-0, but she suddenly drops 8 games in a row! Too much thinking about having her nails done AND relishing thrashing Martina in the French finals at the same time!!!

I remember Carling scared the bejeesus out of me by not only having the gall to win a set off of 'never even came close to losing set before at Amelia Island' Miss Queen of Clay, but then carrying that momentum to a 4-2 third set lead. I do recall the match (and definitely appreciate the YouTube post!) and how Bassett seemed to be handling Chris from the baseline, taking the ball early and forcing Chris into errors. I sensed Carling was riding a wave....I was just hoping that wave would crash before the last ball was struck. I still think there was an overwhelming sense of relief by Chris after the match, rather than a "yeah, I always knew I had it in the bag!" Well, I mean I am sure Chris was confident she could come back, but even she knows it's sometimes tough to stop momentum once you've lost it in a big match.

1983 was another of Chrissie's undefeated clay seasons. She also won the Palm Beach event in January, plus the German and French Opens. She was a bit sketchy in the French, dropping sets to Sukova and Mandlikova, before thrashing Jaeger (again!) and Mima in the final. She was never threatened by Goolagong in the 3rd round. Chris was usually a slow starter, and this was a startling match up for Chris to have to face Evonne so early in a major. (Plus Evonne had extended Chris to three tough sets the prior year in their previous match).

I recently re-read The Rivals by Johnette Howard and was struck by Chris' bitchy attitude towards Martina (care of Nancy L) and how badly she wanted to beat Martina in Paris. I especially loved the quote after a reporter said to her "it's your tournament to win now that Martina lost" and Chris retorted, "You mean it wasn't my tournament to win before?" Mee-ow!!

I do think all the issues with her marriage caused her problems with consistency and desire throughout 1983. She still fared remarkably well though. Of course even a fully fit Austin would most definitely NOT have challenged Evert. And poor #3 Jaeger barely could win games off of Chris that year.

What still remains a mystery to me is the 1984 Amelia Island result. Chris went into that tournament with some momentum, having won 2 tournaments in a row, using her new Graphite racquet. And Martina was not exactly rolling over opponents the way she had been the last year. In one of the best matches I ever saw (at least until NBC cut away in the exciting third set), Hana was outplaying Martina, and probably should have won. I thought for sure Chris would continue her unbeaten streak on clay vs. Martina (and was also confident given Chrissie's double bagel schmear over Martina int he '81 finals). And yet in the most lopsided result of her career, Evert loses 6-2,6-0 to Martina! I was shell shocked. By late in the second set, I was praying for Chris to win games....against Martina....on clay ? ! ? I never knew if the lopsidedness of the match had to do with the unmentionable female issue. Or a total psych job. Or what. But it struck me as an odd result. Of course Martina pasted Chris in the French finals a few months later 6-3,6-1, not allowing Chrissie a single point on serve in the second set (4 games total - how mean!!!) Martina was obviously in her zone, playing what I think was the most complete tennis of her life that year.
DennisFitz is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 09:10 AM   #1609
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Daze - curious why you felt Evert was not threatened in the '83 Amelia Island final. I know she was cruising up 6-3,2-0, but she suddenly drops 8 games in a row! Too much thinking about having her nails done AND relishing thrashing Martina in the French finals at the same time!!!

I remember Carling scared the bejeesus out of me by not only having the gall to win a set off of 'never even came close to losing set before at Amelia Island' Miss Queen of Clay, but then carrying that momentum to a 4-2 third set lead. I do recall the match (and definitely appreciate the YouTube post!) and how Bassett seemed to be handling Chris from the baseline, taking the ball early and forcing Chris into errors. I sensed Carling was riding a wave....I was just hoping that wave would crash before the last ball was struck. I still think there was an overwhelming sense of relief by Chris after the match, rather than a "yeah, I always knew I had it in the bag!" Well, I mean I am sure Chris was confident she could come back, but even she knows it's sometimes tough to stop momentum once you've lost it in a big match.

1983 was another of Chrissie's undefeated clay seasons. She also won the Palm Beach event in January, plus the German and French Opens. She was a bit sketchy in the French, dropping sets to Sukova and Mandlikova, before thrashing Jaeger (again!) and Mima in the final. She was never threatened by Goolagong in the 3rd round. Chris was usually a slow starter, and this was a startling match up for Chris to have to face Evonne so early in a major. (Plus Evonne had extended Chris to three tough sets the prior year in their previous match).

I recently re-read The Rivals by Johnette Howard and was struck by Chris' bitchy attitude towards Martina (care of Nancy L) and how badly she wanted to beat Martina in Paris. I especially loved the quote after a reporter said to her "it's your tournament to win now that Martina lost" and Chris retorted, "You mean it wasn't my tournament to win before?" Mee-ow!!

I do think all the issues with her marriage caused her problems with consistency and desire throughout 1983. She still fared remarkably well though. Of course even a fully fit Austin would most definitely NOT have challenged Evert. And poor #3 Jaeger barely could win games off of Chris that year.

What still remains a mystery to me is the 1984 Amelia Island result. Chris went into that tournament with some momentum, having won 2 tournaments in a row, using her new Graphite racquet. And Martina was not exactly rolling over opponents the way she had been the last year. In one of the best matches I ever saw (at least until NBC cut away in the exciting third set), Hana was outplaying Martina, and probably should have won. I thought for sure Chris would continue her unbeaten streak on clay vs. Martina (and was also confident given Chrissie's double bagel schmear over Martina int he '81 finals). And yet in the most lopsided result of her career, Evert loses 6-2,6-0 to Martina! I was shell shocked. By late in the second set, I was praying for Chris to win games....against Martina....on clay ? ! ? I never knew if the lopsidedness of the match had to do with the unmentionable female issue. Or a total psych job. Or what. But it struck me as an odd result. Of course Martina pasted Chris in the French finals a few months later 6-3,6-1, not allowing Chrissie a single point on serve in the second set (4 games total - how mean!!!) Martina was obviously in her zone, playing what I think was the most complete tennis of her life that year.
I know Evert was a slow starter, but even taking that into account she was really nervous in the early stages against Goolagong. Not that she was ever seriously threatened I agree. I also agree she was still stellar on clay in 83. As for Austin and Jaeger we cant be certain, little did we know then but they had already began to markedly deteriorate that year. In the final of the 84 French Open Navratilova played the best tennis I have ever seen from a woman. I dont know that Evert would have challenged her regardless that day.
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #1610
Jem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,261
Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
DazeHas she ever said that she suffered from a loss of desire in 83? I didnt think so at the time but Jems post has made me reflect on some of the tennis she played. But at the same time she was a clear run away number two. We have had this argument before but I do think she benefited at this stage from the dissapearance of Austin and Jaeger circa Wimbledon and the relatively ineffectual play of Mandlikova???
Don't know if she ever said it, but it sure seemed apparent. If I recall from her book, she was in love with someone other than her husband, and she seemed incredibly preoccupied with lots of stuff besides tennis. She was clearly No. 2, but '83 was the first year I really felt like she never really contended. Maybe that's partly because Martina N was so stellar that year. I will say this -- I loved Evert's looks in 1983!
Jem is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 03:32 PM   #1611
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jem View Post
Don't know if she ever said it, but it sure seemed apparent. If I recall from her book, she was in love with someone other than her husband, and she seemed incredibly preoccupied with lots of stuff besides tennis. She was clearly No. 2, but '83 was the first year I really felt like she never really contended. Maybe that's partly because Martina N was so stellar that year. I will say this -- I loved Evert's looks in 1983!
Jem I agree that she looked great in 83, as she did many years of course. I dont know that it was so much Navratilova being too good though at this stage. That kind of was followed through into 1984 as well. Certainly she played what I recalled as being her least efficient GS final against Navratilova at the Open that year. In the semis she was very good against Durie, but with a little more consistency Jo could have pushed her more. And Durie never really challenged Evert in any other sets they played bar the first in the 84 Wightman Cup.
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #1612
country flag daze11
Senior Member
 
daze11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: BrOoKLyN, NY
Posts: 3,076
daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
Daze - curious why you felt Evert was not threatened in the '83 Amelia Island final. I know she was cruising up 6-3,2-0, but she suddenly drops 8 games in a row! Too much thinking about having her nails done AND relishing thrashing Martina in the French finals at the same time!!!

I remember Carling scared the bejeesus out of me by not only having the gall to win a set off of 'never even came close to losing set before at Amelia Island' Miss Queen of Clay, but then carrying that momentum to a 4-2 third set lead.
No, i was then speaking of the 83 french final; she knew mima could not possibly win. I would go as far as to say if chris tied her left hand behind her back, she would have been able to run around her backhand enough to still win in straight sets.

carling she ALWAYS took seriously; about half of their matches went 3 sets, and I am sure she knew she had to be prepared when she played her.... she probably always thought she'd win so long as she did play well, but every match was a battle, even the 6-2 6-2 wins were closely fought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisFitz View Post
I recently re-read The Rivals by Johnette Howard and was struck by Chris' bitchy attitude towards Martina (care of Nancy L) and how badly she wanted to beat Martina in Paris. I especially loved the quote after a reporter said to her "it's your tournament to win now that Martina lost" and Chris retorted, "You mean it wasn't my tournament to win before?" Mee-ow!!

What still remains a mystery to me is the 1984 Amelia Island result. Chris went into that tournament with some momentum, having won 2 tournaments in a row, using her new Graphite racquet. And Martina was not exactly rolling over opponents the way she had been the last year. In one of the best matches I ever saw (at least until NBC cut away in the exciting third set), Hana was outplaying Martina, and probably should have won. I thought for sure Chris would continue her unbeaten streak on clay vs. Martina
Chris did not have time to be as psyched out in 83 as she became in 84 (The bad loss in the 83 USO was the real alarm for her...) so i think she actually might have faired well if they had met in that final. But in 84, she was still adjusting to the graphite after a whole career with essentially that same wood racquet. Most people dont realize she switched versions of the pro staff a number of times that first year, making slight adjustments to find the right balance. the 84 french final was played with a different 'wilson pro staff' than the 85 final that she won.

When i watch the 84 amelia, I am not struck by martina's play.... I am struck by chrissie's nervousness. There is a shot early on where you can visibly see her hand shake a tad as she prepares to serve. I would not say martina played one of her best matches that day, but that chris played her worst. There was simply too much on the line; the streak with MN, the first clay meeting where she still felt she had one kind of 'crown' left to her name, it was on her home court...it is the only example where the ice princess melted under her own pressure. she usually lined up circumstances to help her defeat an opponent but the truth was there for all to see; self-doubt had officially crept in and there was no hiding it.

The 84 french final.... is interesting. Look how well she did indoors against MN at Madison Sq Garden, & how easily she pushed Martina around in the early stage of the wimbledon final, before she remembered who that was over there, and you wonder how much was perception dictating results. On any given day, anyone can play a great match, regardless of surface. In 87 houston, chris wins, in 87 french, she could barely get a game from martina. Likewise, I think a lot of things could have happened in the 84 french final, had they played it 5 times instead of once. They would not have all been a 6-3 6-1 win for Martina.

But the results 'of the day' seem to form a stone statute in our memory that tell one kind of story line, and we forget how different all of it could have come off. As it is, however, I must say it tells a compelling story!
daze11 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 04:16 PM   #1613
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
No, i was then speaking of the 83 french final; she knew mima could not possibly win. I would go as far as to say if chris tied her left hand behind her back, she would have been able to run around her backhand enough to still win in straight sets.

carling she ALWAYS took seriously; about half of their matches went 3 sets, and I am sure she knew she had to be prepared when she played her.... she probably always thought she'd win so long as she did play well, but every match was a battle, even the 6-2 6-2 wins were closely fought.

Chris did not have time to be as psyched out in 83 as she became in 84 (The bad loss in the 83 USO was the real alarm for her...) so i think she actually might have faired well if they had met in that final. But in 84, she was still adjusting to the graphite after a whole career with essentially that same wood racquet. Most people dont realize she switched versions of the pro staff a number of times that first year, making slight adjustments to find the right balance. the 84 french final was played with a different 'wilson pro staff' than the 85 final that she won.

When i watch the 84 amelia, I am not struck by martina's play.... I am struck by chrissie's nervousness. There is a shot early on where you can visibly see her hand shake a tad as she prepares to serve. I would not say martina played one of her best matches that day, but that chris played her worst. There was simply too much on the line; the streak with MN, the first clay meeting where she still felt she had one kind of 'crown' left to her name, it was on her home court...it is the only example where the ice princess melted under her own pressure. she usually lined up circumstances to help her defeat an opponent but the truth was there for all to see; self-doubt had officially crept in and there was no hiding it.

The 84 french final.... is interesting. Look how well she did indoors against MN at Madison Sq Garden, & how easily she pushed Martina around in the early stage of the wimbledon final, before she remembered who that was over there, and you wonder how much was perception dictating results. On any given day, anyone can play a great match, regardless of surface. In 87 houston, chris wins, in 87 french, she could barely get a game from martina. Likewise, I think a lot of things could have happened in the 84 french final, had they played it 5 times instead of once. They would not have all been a 6-3 6-1 win for Martina.

But the results 'of the day' seem to form a stone statute in our memory that tell one kind of story line, and we forget how different all of it could have come off. As it is, however, I must say it tells a compelling story!
How did you rate the Eisel match in 71 Daze?
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 04:17 PM   #1614
country flag daze11
Senior Member
 
daze11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: BrOoKLyN, NY
Posts: 3,076
daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jem View Post
Don't know if she ever said it, but it sure seemed apparent. If I recall from her book, she was in love with someone other than her husband, and she seemed incredibly preoccupied with lots of stuff besides tennis. She was clearly No. 2, but '83 was the first year I really felt like she never really contended. Maybe that's partly because Martina N was so stellar that year. I will say this -- I loved Evert's looks in 1983!
I adore chris in '83, because I found her to be at her most softest.... it was the perfect contrast for what challenging MN caused her to do, in going 'physical' to quote the Olivia song, that was just part of the zeitgeist of that period's obsession with working out, that is sadly still here today.

But I will admit, I am not only going by her results, but by talking to Steve Flink, who you know saw almost all of her major matches and a good many of her non-major matches live, from 1973 til the end of her career. It was his observation that, from talking to her at the time, that she lacked motivation in comparison, and "was rarely at her best" ...she was 29 and had every reason to consider retiring. She had 'done it'...did she really want to keep fighting, and did she want to change to a graphite racket? You have to knw she looked down her arm at the graphite racket in practice, and said to herself, "Chrissie... what are you doing??" and just shook her head.

But my view is that the champion in her could not accept defeat. If Martina had just grabbed the #1 spot, she would have said, "Bye Martina!! Enjoy!! I had fun being #1 those 7 years, so this is your time..." but Martina was becoming LEGENDARY...not just #1. The perception would have been that she had "chased Chris out of the game" and she was going to make sure that was not the story line. If Martina succeeded, then Chris would have said, "OK I admit it, she was just too good" but she would have gone to the ends of the Earth to turnover the last stone before coming to that conclusion. And as we know, she only lost 2 more after that 84 french before beating Martina, and then rather than saying 'ok now i can go' she got inspired to keep playing.
daze11 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 04:24 PM   #1615
country flag daze11
Senior Member
 
daze11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: BrOoKLyN, NY
Posts: 3,076
daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold daze11 is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by iainmac View Post
How did you rate the Eisel match in 71 Daze?
well, chris was 16...and this match (for all it's fame) is a 2nd round match. It showed a lot of talent, a lot of promise, a lot of resolve. I would not go beyond that however. But see how that match has created 'in stone' a memory of a progression....it is clear she could have lost in straight sets.

Yet by pulling through, history is able to say the first 12 years of her career, she never failed to reach the semifinal of a slam!!!!
daze11 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #1616
country flag Sumarokov-Elston
Senior Member
 
Sumarokov-Elston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 404
Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all Sumarokov-Elston is a name known to all
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
The 84 french final.... is interesting. Look how well she did indoors against MN at Madison Sq Garden, & how easily she pushed Martina around in the early stage of the wimbledon final, before she remembered who that was over there, and you wonder how much was perception dictating results. On any given day, anyone can play a great match, regardless of surface. In 87 houston, chris wins, in 87 french, she could barely get a game from martina. Likewise, I think a lot of things could have happened in the 84 french final, had they played it 5 times instead of once. They would not have all been a 6-3 6-1 win for Martina.
Graphite was never going to do Chrissie any favours on clay. She switched to graphite for reasons of power, which helped her greatly on grass (on which she was always not too far behind Martina) and hard (witness the handy beatings of Martina on cement in 1988 - when you watch the AO semi, you sometimes wonder how Martina ever beat her on hard surfaces). But I believe graphite was detrimental to Chris's clay game. The 1985 FO final is great suspense, but it is ultimately a "bash-fest". Chrissie on clay with wood and graphite is basically two different players. I think she would have beaten Navratilova at the FO in 1983 with wood (look how she handled her 6 months earlier at the AO 1982 on grass, which was wood against metal). When Chrissie had a wooden racket in her hand, she played with her mind. But with graphite, she played with the racket. So on red clay at least (I believe Chris had the edge on green clay), Evert and Navratilova were 2-2 at Roland Garros in 1984-87. But I will always maintain this - as someone who remembers how Chris played in the 1970s - give both players wooden rackets and there is no earthly way that Martina could ever beat Evert on a clay court.
Sumarokov-Elston is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21st, 2010, 06:57 AM   #1617
country flag DennisFitz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 556
DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all DennisFitz is a name known to all
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
No, i was then speaking of the 83 french final; she knew mima could not possibly win. I would go as far as to say if chris tied her left hand behind her back, she would have been able to run around her backhand enough to still win in straight sets.
Daze, how could you say that about my Mima?!? Ms. Jausovec was like my second favorite player. But OK, Chris could have played the match with a one handed backhand and still beat Mima that day! (But to her credit, Mima did push Chris on more than one occasion, including on clay. But also true that Chris never lost to her, and certainly wasn't going to lose in the final. It might have been closer had it been a 4R or QF encounter, but not the finals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
When i watch the 84 amelia, I am not struck by martina's play.... I am struck by chrissie's nervousness. There is a shot early on where you can visibly see her hand shake a tad as she prepares to serve. I would not say martina played one of her best matches that day, but that chris played her worst. There was simply too much on the line; the streak with MN, the first clay meeting where she still felt she had one kind of 'crown' left to her name, it was on her home court...it is the only example where the ice princess melted under her own pressure. she usually lined up circumstances to help her defeat an opponent but the truth was there for all to see; self-doubt had officially crept in and there was no hiding it.
Agree that Chris probably put a lot of pressure on herself. And it was perhaps the last time Martina could go into a match with Chris, and even though an overwhelming #1, still feel like a slight underdog, at least as far as the pundits and fans go. And Martina was always susceptible to how others perceived her. Still, Chris winning a paltry 2 games from Martina on green clay at Amelia Island? How desperate was Chris to get off that island!!! What was interesting about both the Amelia Island and French finals is that Chris went into the final coming off some recent strong results, whereas Martina was tested, and thus looked slightly vulnerable. (Maybe those Chrissie watchers among us were desperate for any signs of vulnerability from Martina at the time). And yet Martina stepped it up big time and crushed Chris on both occasions! And I also think the 1984 French final was another turning point in their rivalry. From that point on, their matches were much more competitive. Sure they both snuck in a few easy 6-2,6-3 type wins, but the majority were close encounters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
The 84 french final.... is interesting. Look how well she did indoors against MN at Madison Sq Garden, & how easily she pushed Martina around in the early stage of the wimbledon final, before she remembered who that was over there, and you wonder how much was perception dictating results. On any given day, anyone can play a great match, regardless of surface. In 87 houston, chris wins, in 87 french, she could barely get a game from martina. Likewise, I think a lot of things could have happened in the 84 french final, had they played it 5 times instead of once. They would not have all been a 6-3 6-1 win for Martina.

But the results 'of the day' seem to form a stone statute in our memory that tell one kind of story line, and we forget how different all of it could have come off. As it is, however, I must say it tells a compelling story!
Interesting comment. Then again it's well known around these parts how much I detest the "could have" words. Yes, A LOT could have been different.....alas it wasn't! And as much as I detest the words and sentiment....I would have liked to have seen a Chrissie-Martina final at the 1983 French. Martina was undefeated going into the French. Martina was the defending champion. Chris was a 4 time champion, gunning to regain her title. And Chris had beaten Martina in their last Grand Slam encounter, the Australian 6 months earlier. That 1982 Australian Open was a glorious win for Chris, playing with her little wooden racquet! I recently re-watched that match, and marvelled at how well Chris played in that one! Apart from a few games in the second set, Chris played a perfect match. And on grass against Martina!!! Beginning with the 1981 Australian and extending all the way until the 1984 Australian, Martina lost but one match on grass, and hardly lost sets to anyone. So that 1982 Australian win was a big one for Chris! It's a match I think is a bit underrated in Chris' career, but shouldn't be overlooked. Afterall, it was the only time Chris beat Martina in a grass court major final (Chris never beat Martina in a hard court major final either).
DennisFitz is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21st, 2010, 02:11 PM   #1618
Jem
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,261
Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future Jem has a brilliant future
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I But I will admit, I am not only going by her results, but by talking to Steve Flink, who you know saw almost all of her major matches and a good many of her non-major matches live, from 1973 til the end of her career. It was his observation that, from talking to her at the time, that she lacked motivation in comparison, and "was rarely at her best" ...she was 29 and had every reason to consider retiring. She had 'done it'...did she really want to keep fighting, and did she want to change to a graphite racket?
But my view is that the champion in her could not accept defeat. If Martina had just grabbed the #1 spot, she would have said, "Bye Martina!! Enjoy!! I had fun being #1 those 7 years, so this is your time..." but Martina was becoming LEGENDARY...not just #1. The perception would have been that she had "chased Chris out of the game" and she was going to make sure that was not the story line. If Martina succeeded, then Chris would have said, "OK I admit it, she was just too good" but she would have gone to the ends of the Earth to turnover the last stone before coming to that conclusion. And as we know, she only lost 2 more after that 84 french before beating Martina, and then rather than saying 'ok now i can go' she got inspired to keep playing.
Agree, agree! I think the 83 U.S. Open final was a wake-up call. I thought Chris got a little lucky the week before when she pushed Martina to three sets in the Canadian final. In the U.S. Open final, she was pulverized and never really stood a chance. You're right -- she did get inspired and played some marvelous tennis after her racket adjustment. The fact that she actually reclaimed the No. 1 spot for a short time still amazes me. She pushed herself and rose to the challenge, which is the mark of a great champion. I still contend, however, that Chris began her real decline after 1985. That may seem a strange thought, and I know she had good wins, etc., but she just seemed a different player after that. I always thought the 86 French was a nice bonus and a tribute to her willpower -- pushing herself to achieve something great when she was past her prime. In many ways, Sampras's last U.S. Open win reminded me of Chris's last French win, although I think Pete had gone even more beyond his prime.
Jem is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21st, 2010, 03:48 PM   #1619
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
I adore chris in '83, because I found her to be at her most softest.... it was the perfect contrast for what challenging MN caused her to do, in going 'physical' to quote the Olivia song, that was just part of the zeitgeist of that period's obsession with working out, that is sadly still here today.

But I will admit, I am not only going by her results, but by talking to Steve Flink, who you know saw almost all of her major matches and a good many of her non-major matches live, from 1973 til the end of her career. It was his observation that, from talking to her at the time, that she lacked motivation in comparison, and "was rarely at her best" ...she was 29 and had every reason to consider retiring. She had 'done it'...did she really want to keep fighting, and did she want to change to a graphite racket? You have to knw she looked down her arm at the graphite racket in practice, and said to herself, "Chrissie... what are you doing??" and just shook her head.

But my view is that the champion in her could not accept defeat. If Martina had just grabbed the #1 spot, she would have said, "Bye Martina!! Enjoy!! I had fun being #1 those 7 years, so this is your time..." but Martina was becoming LEGENDARY...not just #1. The perception would have been that she had "chased Chris out of the game" and she was going to make sure that was not the story line. If Martina succeeded, then Chris would have said, "OK I admit it, she was just too good" but she would have gone to the ends of the Earth to turnover the last stone before coming to that conclusion. And as we know, she only lost 2 more after that 84 french before beating Martina, and then rather than saying 'ok now i can go' she got inspired to keep playing.
DazeI must admit that it was one of the great thrills to me when Evert did turn things round in 84-85. That US Open final of 84 was to me one of the most inspirational turn arounds in the history of the game. It says SO much for the Evert character and the mind of a great champion.
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21st, 2010, 03:52 PM   #1620
country flag iainmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,782
iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold iainmac is a splendid one to behold
Re: Chris Evert Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daze11 View Post
well, chris was 16...and this match (for all it's fame) is a 2nd round match. It showed a lot of talent, a lot of promise, a lot of resolve. I would not go beyond that however. But see how that match has created 'in stone' a memory of a progression....it is clear she could have lost in straight sets.

Yet by pulling through, history is able to say the first 12 years of her career, she never failed to reach the semifinal of a slam!!!!
DazeI watched it last year and I must admit at first the main thing that struck me was what a fine player Eisel was rather than Evert. Chrissies serve looked so vulnerable that it was difficult to work out how she stayed with Eisel so long in the match, but then you look at the brilliance of the tennis she played from the match points down and you see the formation in front of you of a formidable tennis champion. Her overall demeanour was remarkable, but I agree Eisel could and should have had it in straight sets. I guess it also created for evermore an image in the locker room that Evert was never more dangerous than when behind. Some of the greatest comebacks ever in tennis have been her very own contributions. Namely against Wade in the 80 Wightman Cup and against Golasrsa at Wimbledon in 89.
iainmac is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios